Bladesong Style

[toziel]

Heya.

On my Deathsinger Vicaun Barrimtor the Bladesong Style does not seem to work anymore.
When I equip either a longsword or a rapier I do not get the message that the style was activated nor is my AC increased.

[SyntheticRose]

It only seems to refresh when you change armours -- just equipping a weapon doesn't cause it to refresh whether or not it's applicable. Not sure if it's any different for you Underdark types, but up here on the surface, my Bladesinger has noticed the same thing.

[toziel]

That fixed it. Thanks

[Steve]

Slightly hijacking this thread, but: per the Bladesong description, the Dodge AC bonus is limited to half levels with max at half INT bonus. That would be essentially max +5 dodge AC that doesn't stack.

But this would mean that Sorcerer 'Singers would always be inferior to Wizard 'Singers, being almost impossible to increase both Abilities.

Would it not be fairer for the PrC to have the Bladesong bonus be related to Class Casting Ability Modifier, essentially INT or CHA?

[Sun Wukong]

Wild Elf; Sorcerer 6/Cleric 3/Bladesinger 3/Something Else 3 does not violate the '3 by 20' rule of this server.

I would also like to state that clerics of Corellon Larethian get a free Weapon Focus (Longsword) through the War domain. Thus you only need to get the following feats: Dodge, Combat Expertise, and Combat Casting.

This means that you could make a Sorcerer 7/Cleric 3/Bladesinger 10/Arcane Scholar 10 with caster level of 27 with something like 30 charisma and get +15 Dodge AC from Bladesinger and Divine Shield, while wearing that Mithral Chainmail, and having that Combat Expertise on.

Oh, and Sorcerer 7/Cleric 3/Bladesinger 10/Dragon Disciple 10 with its lower caster level of 24 is actually yet another high charisma contender. Not to mention that with something like 32 charisma it would be getting +16 Dodge AC from Bladesinger and Divine Shield, while wearing that Mithral Chainmail, and having that Combat Expertise on, oh and +4 Natural Armor from Dragon Disciple.

You can survive the slightly lower Spell DCs and the possible need to cast Assay Resistance if you got all the AC in the world without a single dispellable buff spell.


Thus, I think the answer to this question will be a no. I do not think it would be fairer to allow Bladesingers to use higher of their INT and CHA.

[Steve]

CL 27 or CL 24 does not equal "...without a dingle dispellable buff spell."

If the one issue for CHA to apply to Bladesong being Divine Shield 'Singers, then simply script Divine Shield and Bladesong to NOT stack (just at Invisible Blade and Duelist AC doesn't stack with Bladesong).

[Sun Wukong]

CL 27 or CL 24 does not equal "...without a dingle dispellable buff spell."

If you don't know...

Those bracers with +4 armor AC are a thing you can purchase.
Then cloaks with +4 Deflection AC are a thing you can purchase.
While amulets with +4 Natural AC are a thing you can purchase.
And even boots with +4 Dodge AC are a thing you can purchase.

Not to mention that Mithral Chain Mail is also a thing you can purchase.

10 (Base)
+ 4 (Dexterity)
+ 6 (Mithral Chain Mail)
+ 4 (Bracers)
+ 4 (Cloak)
+ 4 (Amulet)
+ 4 (Boots)
+ 10 (Divine Shield)
+ 5 (Suggested Bladesinger bonus AC)
+ 3 (Combat Expertise)
+ 3 (30 ranks in Tumble Skill)
= 57

As for the Dragon Disciple build, it would sit at 62 undispellable AC.

Now, both can add spells that increase the AC even further, such as Shield, Greater Mage Armor, Spiderskin/Shadowshield, Haste, and Reduce Person for a total of +9 dispellable AC on top fo that..

They can also get Mirror Images and Concealment...

Anyhow, currently the Sorcerer 7/Cleric 3/Bladesinger 10/Dragon Disciple 10 build with its caster level of 24 can get the following undispellable AC:

10 (Base)
+ 4 (Dexterity)
+ 6 (Mithral Chain Mail)
+ 4 (Bracers)
+ 4 (Cloak)
+ 4 (Amulet)
+ 4 (Boots)
+ 11 (Divine Shield)
+ 3 (Combat Expertise)
+ 3 (30 ranks in Tumble Skill)
+ 4 (Dragon Disciple Natural Armor)
= 57

The Sorcerer 7/Cleric 3/Bladesinger 10/Arcane Scholar 10 with its caster level of 27 is sitting at undispellable AC of 52.

Wait... I did the above with the assumption that 13 INT gave AC bonus of +0, but the Dragon Disciple build should get at least +1 AC thanks to +2 INT from Dragon Disciple.

Anyhow, can you argue that the two above builds require mechanical help?

As for making it so that the Divine Shield does not stack with Bladesinger AC, well... to me it does feel like somewhat redudant change.

[Steve]

Wizard / 'Singer with INT 30 and CL 29–30:

10 (Base)
+ 4 (Dexterity)
+ 6 (Mithral Chain Mail)
+ 4 (Bracers)
+ 4 (Cloak)
+ 4 (Amulet)
+ 4 (Boots)
+ 5 (Bladesinger bonus AC)
+ 3 (Combat Expertise)
+ 3 (30 ranks in Tumble Skill)
+ 4 (Shield Spell)
+ 2 Improved Mage Armor
+ 1 Shadow Shield
+ 1 Haste
= 55

Your essentially arguing a +2/+3 difference in AC from a actually undispellable Wizard/'Singer versus a Divine Shield Sorcerer/'Singer that has a 20%+ dispellability (which the final numbers...and says little about playability during the leveling process).

[chad878262]

Steve,

I think you are missing SW's point here. None of the AC listed is based on spells. With IMA, Shield/Deez's and Spiderskin/Shadow Shield you've got an additional AC over and above the AC listed. However, the AC listed is undispellable because it is coming from equipment/abilities, not from spells.

My Bladesinger is not full caster level and thus relies on equipping as a Fighter. It's a good tactic if you want to incorporate Swashbuckler, Duelist, Shadow Dancer or any other non-caster progression classes in your build. This also has the benefit of opening up spell slots to utilize for song of celerity.

[Steve]

Undispellable AC from Spells is equal to AC from gear or Feats, on this issue.

If Monkey Man's point is Sorcerers will always take Divine Shield with Bladesong, then just script it so the 2 Feats don't stack.

Otherwise, because of this one combo, all other Sorcerer / 'Singers will forego benefits from Bladesong. This makes sense along the lines of why the PrC is scripted to disallow Unfettered Defense from stacking.

[chad878262]

There are benefits of Sorcerer Bladesingers over Wizard and I don't know that you can script two abilities which provide dodge AC to not stack. Dodge AC stacks up to +20 and pretty sure any Dodge AC items will stack.

Sorc Bladesingers do work best as Longsword STR/EDM builds whereas Wizards work better as INT/DEX Rapier builds, I see nothing wrong with this. For a Sorc Bladesinger you could just set INT to 10 or 14 which with Fox Cunning will give you +1 or +2 AC. Meanwhile as a Sorc you cast more spells per day and thanks to no need to memorize if there is a dispel you have much more ability to reapply buffs, making you less dependent on gear. I personally wouldn't prioritize Divine Shield as much as Divine Might (Bladesingers are a bit feat starved, especially sorcerers). Going Cleric or Paladin and getting EDM is a solid way to get some serious spike damage. Consider EDM, Smite, Song of Celerity and you have a pretty solid boss killer. Since you can't wield a Shield you're also getting solid benefit out of activating Power Attack. While on the other side, an INT/DEX based SB/W/EK/BS will have double INT to damage, that won't approach the EDM Sorc. Assuming 30 INT (for +5 AC, +20 damage) a STR/CHA of 22 (26) will end up with +12 (STR*1.5) + 16 (EDM) + 6 (Power Attack) = +34 damage.

There is no need to empower Sorc Bladesingers as they have a bit lower AC, but can get enhanced AC with Divine Shield if they choose, and/or they can be much better damage dealers than INT/DEX based Bladesingers.

[Sun Wukong]

Not exactly... You get to cast in light armor without suffering from arcane spell failure, which in turn allows you to make use of Mithral Chain Mail and that alone is easily +6 AC.

Now, the Bladesinger PRC requires 13 intelligence, and taking 14 is not exactly difficult even as a Wild Elf that has -2 racial penalty with it. I mean, you could literally start out with the following stats:

Code: Select all

STR: 13 (Power Attack)
DEX: 14 (Dodge)
CON: 11
INT: 14 (Combat Expertise)
WIS:  8
CHA: 16

That +2 INT modifier translates to +1 AC. Slap that +4 Intelligence Helmet and you got +2 INT on top of your light armor and dexterity modifier.

Now, were it made so that the 'Bladesong AC' doesn't stack with Divine Shield... The Divine Shield users will just lose few points of AC... But in return they basically get half of their Divine Shield AC active permanently. If you think about it, it is actually a far bigger boon than the loss of few points of already high AC. In otherwords, if such a Sorcerer Bladesinger had to use Divine Shield in some area, after this suggested change it might not be necessary anymore. After all, if the AC is high enough to block everything that is not a natural 20, any point of AC after that is just useless.

[chad878262]

Actually if you want EDM Wood Elf is really the only option and you have to put up with an XP penalty. Starting stats: 17 / 14 / 10 / 14 / 8 / 14. Ending stats 21 / 14 / 10 / 14 / 8 / 21 (requires all epic feats for Great CHA +4 and EDM.) So you get a pretty solid boss killer type damage wise with strong AC and all the spell goodies of a sorc, but you only have 3 extra feats you can pick up. I would probably go with one weapon, a reserve feat and maybe extend or empower (for song of celerity use). The reserve feat can be applied without utilizing your spell resources and then empower IGMS or the like can be used against bosses.

[Steve]

You could have also said: Bladesong used INT in PnP of this PrC, and case closed!

[chad878262]

You could have also said: Bladesong used INT in PnP of this PrC, and case closed!

I could, but in truth when the PRC was created we discussed the INT to AC bit and it was determined that Sorcs had other things they could synergize with to make strong Bladesingers. So while PnP is the basis for the class we did consider how it would balance if we allowed CHA to be used for AC. It was determined that the PRC was balanced better keeping INT only.