Since the other thread raised the idea - here's the trial -

Questions About Character Builds, Build Critiques, and Build Sharing

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Hoihe
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Since the other thread raised the idea - here's the trial -

Unread post by Hoihe »

Build me a moon elven "Gandalf"-style gish.

Unalienable requirements:
  • AT LEAST 14 charisma.
  • AT LEAST 210 skill points.
  • HAS wizard baseclass.
  • Does NOT wear armour.
  • Does NOT use conjuration (summoning/calling).
  • Does NOT use evil spells.
  • Does NOT use Enchantment (Compulsion - as in the dominate line)
  • AT LEAST 6th circle spellcasting
  • Does NOT rely on round/level buffs (exception: Allowed for boss fights)
  • HAS Silent Spell (so that I can take my french leave without giving people the opportunity to stop me to avoid PvP/CvC by essentially invisibly teleporting out due to Teleport being naturally auto stilled, and with Silent spell, it's undetectable without magical observation)
  • Has HiPS/Evasion
  • Perform is a class skill
  • ALL knowledge skills are class skills
  • Diplomacy is a class skill
  • Tumble is a class skill
  • AT LEAST 20 dex/int
  • HAS Natural Leader background feat
  • ONLY uses 1 of the ring slots (1 ring slot is dedicated to the Ring of Untherite Generals for Expert Tactician feat, mass healing AND romantic RP purposes)
  • Playable from level 25
Preferred requirements: (from most wanted to least wanted)
  1. IS NOT painful to play when only 6 players are online. (also known as is able to solo varied content)
  2. Does not get shafted by DMs who believe a common challenge that random Billy Bobs the Farmers and Navigator McHenry the Navigator do every day have a DC of "HD + 20" for skills Atria is supposed to be knowledgeable/expert at (not necessarily master)
  3. Minimises reliance on minute/level spellcasting (I hate being time-locked by buffs)
  4. Minimises reliance on hour/level spellcasting (so I don't waste all my spells)
  5. CAN fight up to CR 15-17 with absolutely no spellcasting solo
  6. Uses a rapier with empty off-hand. Longsword is also OK.
  7. Focuses on "Enabling" party members by debilitating an enemy
  8. HAS able learner
  9. AT LEAST 241 skill points
  10. CAN fight any content EXCEPT end game AND bosses (Frost, Fire, Yuan-ti, Vault, Netherese, White) without most spells (debuff, damage and mirror image permitted)
  11. 9th circle spellcasting
  12. Has "Expert Tactician", "Combat Expertise" or Leadership feat (any appicable. Expert Tactician is provided by item, so semi-solved provided I don't need a ring)
  13. Playable from level 1
  14. Has "True Believer" feat


Some explanations:

MINIMUM 14 natural charisma - character has Natural Leader background feat which affects how charisma is interpreted. In this scenario, charisma means inspiring confidence and ability to sway people towards a common goal. HAS been used in RP successfully, thus losing it would be cheating.

Magic-less mage: Over time, Atria had quite a few situations where she lost access to magic (either due to massive experience loss due to a ritual, a curse, a plane where the Weave does not reach) and is such wary of relying on magic to do her bidding. Essentially, imagine Kreia's/canon Meetra Surik's views of the Force, except less antagonistic and more utilitarian. A sword, fists or words alway work, spells can fail.

High skill point demand:
  • Partly mechanics (Hide/MS 33, Tumble 30, UMD 8, spellcraft 30, open lock 1, disable device 1. parry 5),
  • partly Anti-DM/Anti-CvC defence (Search 10, Sense Motive 10, Escape Artist 10),
  • partly RP [with respect to D20Srd/PhB/DMG for definitions of trained/skilled/expert/master, while trying to defend myself from DMs who define DCs as HD + 10 Knowledge (Geography) to recognize where The Traveler's Star is, despite every random sailor knowing where it is, thus leading to embarrasing situations of the weathered sea dog of a captain having no idea where to find the FR-equivalent of the Northern star)
  • Knowledge Geography/Astronomy - Expert/master (20 ranks)
  • Knowledge Arcane - Expert (15 ranks)
  • Knowledge Engineering/architecture - skilled/expert (10-15 ranks)
  • Survival - 5 (auto recognise where north is regardless of conditions, as per d20srd)
  • Perform - skilled (10 ranks, allowing for auto routine, high chance enjoyable, average chance great, low memorable, occasional extraoridinary)
  • Diplomacy - Skilled/expert (10-15 ranks, so that there's a chance without (assuming no other hidden mods) any items/spells to sway random NPCs to be helpful, to inspire friendly NPCs with good chance, and to defuse hostile situations with a decent chance. I collected a full set of diplomacy gear from Seven Suns, so there's little need to go above 10 but it'd be nice.
  • Excess skill points to invest as RP demands AND pad against potential DMs wanting a "challenge" (leading to lovely inconsistencies).
Current SP demand comes out at EXACTLY 141 skill points taking 10 engi and 10 diplo. Anything lower will need to somehow justify skill point loss. I am most willing to lose on H/MS (20 on each frees up 26 sp)

edit: Best part is, all this skill point investment is worth nothing because skills aren't 33 ranks in, because obviously random nobody john the navigator has 33 ranks in knowledge geography and survival as a level 4 Expert due to being a 40 year old weathered navigator so that he can sail form BG to Waterdeep/Mintarn and back without getting lost with clear skies.

(Hint: John the navigator probably has 12-14 intelligence, let's go with 14 and cannot afford magical items to boost things. At level 1 he had 13 intelligence and thus received (6 + 1) * 4 = 21 skill points, of which he put 4 and 4 into survival/geography. Then the next 2 levels he received 14 sp, which he split into 2/2 for both. At level 4 he got 8 skill points, of which he put 1/1 into both. He has over all 4 + 3 = 7 knowledge (geography) and survival. Let's say because we're on BG, he's level 8. Thus he has 11 knowledge (geography) and survival. Going by the DCs some DMs dish out, he can't even find his house from the corner shop with such low skill ranks!
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chad878262
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Re: Since the other thread raised the idea - here's the tria

Unread post by chad878262 »

http://nwn2db.com/build/?295025

Here you go... FYI the skills I threw together so don't really know if I got all of them listed as you want. I hate the stat split, but if you want to drop INT to 16 starting that will give you 6 points to split between STR, CON at the expense of 1 less AC, 1 less damage, 1 less DC and fewer spells.

Have fun.
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

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Hoihe
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Re: Since the other thread raised the idea - here's the tria

Unread post by Hoihe »

I should add that due to background, Bladesinger is NOT compatible. Partly because character is not willing to sacrifice personal freedom for the Duty of a Bladesinger, and partly because of Atria's backstory being... yeah.

It would work well SP wise, but it has practically no damage. Against quite a few mobs, all I'd do would be whiffing at them for 3 damage.

Even my 30 damage is barely enough to scratch monsters.

That HP is basically.... I get hit with a natural 20 and drop dead. I don't consider even 300 HP sufficient to be able to ignore natural 20s, but 160 at 30?

For the record, I consider content soloable if only natural 20s hit from trash-mobs, and their damage from the unconfirmed nat 20s do not deal more than 10-20% of max HP.

My current build: http://nwn2db.com/build/?273692

I'm also honestly debating getting 10 wisdom to defend myself from "Doesn't play sheet" pedants attacking for justifying decent decisions with intelligence. But that leaves me with 8 strength which doesn't work with someone who does frequent physical labour.
For life to be worth living, afterlife must retain individuality, personal identity and  memories without fail  - https://www.sageadvice.eu/do-elves-reta ... afterlife/
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chad878262
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Re: Since the other thread raised the idea - here's the tria

Unread post by chad878262 »

Sorry, but you are doing something wrong... I play a similar build, this one only does ~10 damage less in exchange for HiPS, Evasion and Expose Weakness.

Replace Bladesinger with DragonSlayer and it is not that different, frankly you have a few open feats! I'll maybe do something else later, but I'm not going to play the game where I hit all but 1 of your requirements (19 DEX instead of 20) and then you add new ones. I'm sure it was just a simple miss and that's fine, but it does feel like you want to find ways to make the build worse and then complain about it not being as good as you want it to be...
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

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Rain
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Re: Since the other thread raised the idea - here's the tria

Unread post by Rain »

http://nwn2db.com/build/?295028

Build me a moon elven "Gandalf"-style gish.

Unalienable requirements:
AT LEAST 14 charisma. (Check)
AT LEAST 210 skill points. (Check: Build has 240)
HAS wizard baseclass. (Check)
Does NOT wear armour. (Check)
Does NOT use conjuration (summoning/calling). (Check)
Does NOT use evil spells. (Check)
Does NOT use Enchantment (Compulsion - as in the dominate line) (Check)
AT LEAST 6th circle spellcasting (Check)
Does NOT rely on round/level buffs (exception: Allowed for boss fights) (Check)
HAS Silent Spell (so that I can take my french leave without giving people the opportunity to stop me to avoid PvP/CvC by essentially invisibly teleporting out due to Teleport being naturally auto stilled, and with Silent spell, it's undetectable without magical observation) (Check)
Has HiPS/Evasion (Check: Shadow Dancer)
Perform is a class skill (Check: Harper Mage)
ALL knowledge skills are class skills (Check: Harper Mage)
Diplomacy is a class skill (Check: Harper Mage)
Tumble is a class skill (Check: Harper Mage)
AT LEAST 20 dex/int (Check: You have 20DEX/ 22INt/ AND 18 STR with bull strenght on this build.)
HAS Natural Leader background feat (Check)
ONLY uses 1 of the ring slots (1 ring slot is dedicated to the Ring of Untherite Generals for Expert Tactician feat, mass healing AND romantic RP purposes) (Check)
Playable from level 25 (Check)

Preferred requirements: (from most wanted to least wanted)
IS NOT painful to play when only 6 players are online. (also known as is able to solo varied content) (Check)
Does not get shafted by DMs who believe a common challenge that random Billy Bobs the Farmers and Navigator McHenry the Navigator do every day have a DC of "HD + 20" for skills Atria is supposed to be knowledgeable/expert at (not necessarily master) (Check)
Minimises reliance on minute/level spellcasting (I hate being time-locked by buffs) (Check)
Minimises reliance on hour/level spellcasting (so I don't waste all my spells) (Check)
CAN fight up to CR 15-17 with absolutely no spellcasting solo (Check: Youll have 31 AB with Bull strenght or a +4 STR item and a +4 longsword or Greater magic weapon on.)
Uses a rapier with empty off-hand. Longsword is also OK. (Check)
Focuses on "Enabling" party members by debilitating an enemy (Check: Plenty of wizard spells do that.)
HAS able learner (Check)
AT LEAST 241 skill points (Your 1 off your a 240)
CAN fight any content EXCEPT end game AND bosses (Frost, Fire, Yuan-ti, Vault, Netherese, White) without most spells (debuff, damage and mirror image permitted) (Check)
9th circle spellcasting (Check)
Has "Expert Tactician", "Combat Expertise" or Leadership feat (any appicable. Expert Tactician is provided by item, so semi-solved provided I don't need a ring) (You have Expert tactician and Combat Expertise.) (Check)
Playable from level 1 (Uh....... Maybe?)
Has "True Believer" feat (No room to take it unless you give up more STR)
Cerebella Dreambreaker - Insectomancer
__________

Larfleeze Keres Hamoa - Plague Doctor
__________

Batibat Kok-Lir Kasdeya - The All-Seeing Eye

"The Ruined Queen" - Leader of The All-Seeing Eyes.

"For the night is dark, and full of terrors."
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Hoihe
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Re: Since the other thread raised the idea - here's the tria

Unread post by Hoihe »

@Rain - That build has no melee damage :( or armour.




From a PM, I decided to see what can be done if I lose 9th circle spells and stick to just 6th.

Ended up squeezing in the 7th because no major gain in skill point or AC.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?295029

Has pretty decent damage too, awesome AC, good skill spread (I even get Parry, so people can't flame me for "not playing my sheet" for emoting deflecting enemy blows rather than dodging).

Yes, I'm a bit overboard with trying to prevent noise about "In my view your sheet doesn't prove that!"
For life to be worth living, afterlife must retain individuality, personal identity and  memories without fail  - https://www.sageadvice.eu/do-elves-reta ... afterlife/
A character belongs only to their player, and only them. And only the player may decide what happens.
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Rain
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Re: Since the other thread raised the idea - here's the tria

Unread post by Rain »

Well good to see you found at-least a base line that works.

I was just following your list and adhering the bullet points you wanted on it.

But hey good on you for finding something in the right direction.
Cerebella Dreambreaker - Insectomancer
__________

Larfleeze Keres Hamoa - Plague Doctor
__________

Batibat Kok-Lir Kasdeya - The All-Seeing Eye

"The Ruined Queen" - Leader of The All-Seeing Eyes.

"For the night is dark, and full of terrors."
chad878262
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Re: Since the other thread raised the idea - here's the tria

Unread post by chad878262 »

That attack bonus is poor. You are going to need to equip as a sneak to make sure your hide skill allows you to always strike out of stealth.

You will get dispelled, everywhere. Not sure what you are using spells for as DC's are low, Caster level is 13 so lesser dispel has a chance to strip you. Regular dispel will likely strip at least half your wards, likely closer to all of them. Greater Dispel will strip you completely.

I would recommend dropping either Dualist or SB in favor of Eldritch Knight. SB5/W12/EK10/SD3 would have 1 more BAB and CL21 (25 if you can squeeze in practiced caster). You do lose INT to AC though. Another option might be W10/EK10/D7/SD3. Get's more AC, but loses a little damage which might be a good trade. Still get's CL19, 23 with Practiced Caster. In either case has 9th level spells and only really has to be worried about Greater Dispel, making wards more useful.

Play what you want, of course. I just think you will end up being upset that your CL13, BAB22 build is not performing well, because it has the BAB of a Medium class and CL only a little better than an Assassin. It's worse at being a Fighter than most 'true' gish builds and WAY worse at being a caster. AB for a HiPS character really wants to be 35 and Greater Heroism is only going to last you 13 minutes, you don't have a lot of 6th level spell slots. Damage isn't worth anything if you can't land a hit. AC is all well and good, but if you take ages to kill mobs and get surrounded you will struggle.

Not trying to play Debbie Downer, but I worry that much like your low STR Great Sword user you perhaps aren't seeing some pretty significant downsides the build will have.
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

Tarent's Wands and Elixirs

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Hoihe
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Re: Since the other thread raised the idea - here's the tria

Unread post by Hoihe »

chad878262 wrote:That attack bonus is poor. You are going to need to equip as a sneak to make sure your hide skill allows you to always strike out of stealth.

You will get dispelled, everywhere. Not sure what you are using spells for as DC's are low, Caster level is 13 so lesser dispel has a chance to strip you. Regular dispel will likely strip at least half your wards, likely closer to all of them. Greater Dispel will strip you completely.

I would recommend dropping either Dualist or SB in favor of Eldritch Knight. SB5/W12/EK10/SD3 would have 1 more BAB and CL21 (25 if you can squeeze in practiced caster). You do lose INT to AC though. Another option might be W10/EK10/D7/SD3. Get's more AC, but loses a little damage which might be a good trade. Still get's CL19, 23 with Practiced Caster. In either case has 9th level spells and only really has to be worried about Greater Dispel, making wards more useful.

Play what you want, of course. I just think you will end up being upset that your CL13, BAB22 build is not performing well, because it has the BAB of a Medium class and CL only a little better than an Assassin. It's worse at being a Fighter than most 'true' gish builds and WAY worse at being a caster. AB for a HiPS character really wants to be 35 and Greater Heroism is only going to last you 13 minutes, you don't have a lot of 6th level spell slots. Damage isn't worth anything if you can't land a hit. AC is all well and good, but if you take ages to kill mobs and get surrounded you will struggle.

Not trying to play Debbie Downer, but I worry that much like your low STR Great Sword user you perhaps aren't seeing some pretty significant downsides the build will have.

EK doesn't have the necessary feats to make the build work without losing out on a lot of skill points/AC.

It also loses out on a lot of skill points gained by pushing wizard 5 to epics.

Currently I have around 26 AB with CE and tend to land most of my openers.

I could exchange ICE for PSC and guarantee a +4 weapon.

If Sense Motive/Escape Artist/Knowledge split didn't exist, life would be much easier skill point wise. But since they do exist, I need to invest in them to justify RP/save myself from potentially ill-resulting DM events.
For life to be worth living, afterlife must retain individuality, personal identity and  memories without fail  - https://www.sageadvice.eu/do-elves-reta ... afterlife/
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metaquad4
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Re: Since the other thread raised the idea - here's the tria

Unread post by metaquad4 »

chad878262 wrote:That attack bonus is poor. You are going to need to equip as a sneak to make sure your hide skill allows you to always strike out of stealth.

You will get dispelled, everywhere. Not sure what you are using spells for as DC's are low, Caster level is 13 so lesser dispel has a chance to strip you. Regular dispel will likely strip at least half your wards, likely closer to all of them. Greater Dispel will strip you completely.

I would recommend dropping either Dualist or SB in favor of Eldritch Knight. SB5/W12/EK10/SD3 would have 1 more BAB and CL21 (25 if you can squeeze in practiced caster). You do lose INT to AC though. Another option might be W10/EK10/D7/SD3. Get's more AC, but loses a little damage which might be a good trade. Still get's CL19, 23 with Practiced Caster. In either case has 9th level spells and only really has to be worried about Greater Dispel, making wards more useful.

Play what you want, of course. I just think you will end up being upset that your CL13, BAB22 build is not performing well, because it has the BAB of a Medium class and CL only a little better than an Assassin. It's worse at being a Fighter than most 'true' gish builds and WAY worse at being a caster. AB for a HiPS character really wants to be 35 and Greater Heroism is only going to last you 13 minutes, you don't have a lot of 6th level spell slots. Damage isn't worth anything if you can't land a hit. AC is all well and good, but if you take ages to kill mobs and get surrounded you will struggle.

Not trying to play Debbie Downer, but I worry that much like your low STR Great Sword user you perhaps aren't seeing some pretty significant downsides the build will have.
History will come full circle (again). Not to flame you Hoihe, you are my friend and I love you for that. But, if you make/will only accept poor builds (due to stringent and unflexible requirements) then complain that your builds won't function, that is going to be on you.

You rejected the good ideas above, so you've backed yourself into a corner due to narrow requirements that'll give breed to a build that you won't enjoy playing. Maybe making a new character will solve this for you, give you more wiggle room with your build and maybe spark something that you'll really enjoy playing.

The AB is way below average. The damage is low-average. The AC is the only thing that is decent (until a dispel hits).
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Rain
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Re: Since the other thread raised the idea - here's the tria

Unread post by Rain »

The only part i'm confused about is why are you even trying to have castable spells with something that is a martial based non caster class and skill point set-up?

If your not using it to get some form of PRC advancement like 5 bard into Pale master for crit immunity then what is the point of even trying to squeeze the already low caster level to a medium and still have the high possibility of getting your castable spells dispelled by NORMAL mobs and thus become useless spell slots.

You may as well just buy some wands and potions and use those to save yourself the low AB and BAB and thus at-least be an optimal up-front duelist/fighter then a non optimal novice trainee wizard who ditched wizard college to go to fighter college half way through the semester.
Cerebella Dreambreaker - Insectomancer
__________

Larfleeze Keres Hamoa - Plague Doctor
__________

Batibat Kok-Lir Kasdeya - The All-Seeing Eye

"The Ruined Queen" - Leader of The All-Seeing Eyes.

"For the night is dark, and full of terrors."
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Hoihe
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Re: Since the other thread raised the idea - here's the tria

Unread post by Hoihe »

metaquad4 wrote:
chad878262 wrote:That attack bonus is poor. You are going to need to equip as a sneak to make sure your hide skill allows you to always strike out of stealth.

You will get dispelled, everywhere. Not sure what you are using spells for as DC's are low, Caster level is 13 so lesser dispel has a chance to strip you. Regular dispel will likely strip at least half your wards, likely closer to all of them. Greater Dispel will strip you completely.

I would recommend dropping either Dualist or SB in favor of Eldritch Knight. SB5/W12/EK10/SD3 would have 1 more BAB and CL21 (25 if you can squeeze in practiced caster). You do lose INT to AC though. Another option might be W10/EK10/D7/SD3. Get's more AC, but loses a little damage which might be a good trade. Still get's CL19, 23 with Practiced Caster. In either case has 9th level spells and only really has to be worried about Greater Dispel, making wards more useful.

Play what you want, of course. I just think you will end up being upset that your CL13, BAB22 build is not performing well, because it has the BAB of a Medium class and CL only a little better than an Assassin. It's worse at being a Fighter than most 'true' gish builds and WAY worse at being a caster. AB for a HiPS character really wants to be 35 and Greater Heroism is only going to last you 13 minutes, you don't have a lot of 6th level spell slots. Damage isn't worth anything if you can't land a hit. AC is all well and good, but if you take ages to kill mobs and get surrounded you will struggle.

Not trying to play Debbie Downer, but I worry that much like your low STR Great Sword user you perhaps aren't seeing some pretty significant downsides the build will have.
History will come full circle (again). Not to flame you Hoihe, you are my friend and I love you for that. But, if you make/will only accept poor builds (due to stringent and unflexible requirements) then complain that your builds won't function, that is going to be on you.

You rejected the good ideas above, so you've backed yourself into a corner due to narrow requirements that'll give breed to a build that you won't enjoy playing. Maybe making a new character will solve this for you, give you more wiggle room with your build and maybe spark something that you'll really enjoy playing.

The AB is way below average. The damage is low-average. The AC is the only thing that is decent.

As said, if there wasn't the atmosphere that is prone to ignite at moment's notice for someone to pedantically point out that "Because you don't have this many ranks in this skill, or don't have this feat you are not playing your sheet." It already feels risky playing a religious character without the Devout background feat or True Believer/sacred vow.

And if the DMs also didn't prove that it's very possible to get screwed over majorly due to wildly differing interpretations of skill DCs (in equal conditions), I also wouldn't be so insistent on having Escape Artist and whatnot so high. KNowing my luck, I'll get screwed over still because the DM will decide that modifiers don't matter, the dice matters leading to amazing results of navigating a ship onto rocks in clear waters, clear skies and no currents. Because "challenge."

I don't mind challenge - but it needs to be appropriate. If Billy Bob, son of Henry, the Navigator does 2-5 trips a year between Mintarn/Waterdeep/Baldur's Gate without issue, then why should an adventurer, be they level 15 or 30, have issues doing the same during ideal weather?

Sure, Billy Bob, Son of Henry, the Navigator will fail to successfully navigate from Waterdeep to Mintarn if his maps are stolen, if his instruments broke, if the sky is perpetually cloudy. However, that's when there's an actual point to making someone with 20 ranks roll. Is their knowledge good enough to mitigate the ill circumnstances? As the saying goes, good navigators sail by the smell of sea. Chances are, barring wildly chaotic circumnstances over multiple days, someone with 20 ranks will likely succeed, but they may slip up.

Now, Billy Bob, Son of Henry won't find some random uncharted island based only on rumours while treading dark waters in a fog in overcast skies. Not even Kalma Hellstorm will find it easily. But unlike Billy Bob, Kalma Hellstorm has a chance as a level 15/20/30 adventurer.

Rain wrote:The only part i'm confused about is why are you even trying to have castable spells with something that is a martial based non caster class and skill point set-up?

If your not using it to get some form of PRC advancement like 5 bard into Pale master for crit immunity then what is the point of even trying to squeeze the already low caster level to a medium and still have the high possibility of getting your castable spells dispelled by NORMAL mobs and thus become useless spell slots.

You may as well just buy some wands and potions and use those to save yourself the low AB and BAB and thus at-least be an optimal up-front duelist/fighter then a non optimal novice trainee wizard who ditched wizard college to go to fighter college half way through the semester.
Vast majority of wizards barely has the 1st circle mastered, much less the 6th. While the 6th circle is definitely not mastery of the Arcane, it is a commendable grasp.

A quick search of FR wiki shows numerous wizards of considerable accomplishment being only at the 3th-5th circle, maybe 7th. Behold the wizard king! He's got 6th circle spellcasting. http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Alokkair

This comment itself is an example of my issues with the general atmosphere - we forget NPCs exist and adjust expectations and thus difficulty checks/skill rank judgements according to PCs. Checks and judgements when applied to NPCs, even with doubled levels/halved PC levels WILL result in 100% failure.
Last edited by Hoihe on Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
For life to be worth living, afterlife must retain individuality, personal identity and  memories without fail  - https://www.sageadvice.eu/do-elves-reta ... afterlife/
A character belongs only to their player, and only them. And only the player may decide what happens.
chad878262
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Re: Since the other thread raised the idea - here's the tria

Unread post by chad878262 »

It sounds like you have issues with DMs... PM the HDMs. I've never run in to such an issue and if it's as you say it sounds like an abuse of power/ someone just bein a jerk. I can't say I have agreed with every dm decision that has impacted my PCs, but I've never found any of them to be unfair to the extent you elude to be experiencing.
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Re: Since the other thread raised the idea - here's the tria

Unread post by metaquad4 »

Hoihe wrote: As said, if there wasn't the atmosphere that is prone to ignite at moment's notice for someone to pedantically point out that "Because you don't have this many ranks in this skill, or don't have this feat you are not playing your sheet." It already feels risky playing a religious character without the Devout background feat or True Believer/sacred vow.

And if the DMs also didn't prove that it's very possible to get screwed over majorly due to wildly differing interpretations of skill DCs (in equal conditions), I also wouldn't be so insistent on having Escape Artist and whatnot so high. KNowing my luck, I'll get screwed over still because the DM will decide that modifiers don't matter, the dice matters leading to amazing results of navigating a ship onto rocks in clear waters, clear skies and no currents. Because "challenge."

I don't mind challenge - but it needs to be appropriate. If Billy Bob, son of Henry, the Navigator does 2-5 trips a year between Mintarn/Waterdeep/Baldur's Gate without issue, then why should an adventurer, be they level 15 or 30, have issues doing the same during ideal weather?

Sure, Billy Bob, Son of Henry, the Navigator will fail to successfully navigate from Waterdeep to Mintarn if his maps are stolen, if his instruments broke, if the sky is perpetually cloudy. However, that's when there's an actual point to making someone with 20 ranks roll. Is their knowledge good enough to mitigate the ill circumnstances? As the saying goes, good navigators sail by the smell of sea. Chances are, barring wildly chaotic circumnstances over multiple days, someone with 20 ranks will likely succeed, but they may slip up.

Now, Billy Bob, Son of Henry won't find some random uncharted island based only on rumours while treading dark waters in a fog in overcast skies. Not even Kalma Hellstorm will find it easily. But unlike Billy Bob, Kalma Hellstorm has a chance as a level 15/20/30 adventurer.

Rain wrote:The only part i'm confused about is why are you even trying to have castable spells with something that is a martial based non caster class and skill point set-up?

If your not using it to get some form of PRC advancement like 5 bard into Pale master for crit immunity then what is the point of even trying to squeeze the already low caster level to a medium and still have the high possibility of getting your castable spells dispelled by NORMAL mobs and thus become useless spell slots.

You may as well just buy some wands and potions and use those to save yourself the low AB and BAB and thus at-least be an optimal up-front duelist/fighter then a non optimal novice trainee wizard who ditched wizard college to go to fighter college half way through the semester.
Vast majority of wizards barely has the 1st circle mastered, much less the 6th. While the 6th circle is definitely not mastery of the Arcane, it is a commendable grasp.

A quick search of FR wiki shows numerous wizards of considerable accomplishment being only at the 3th-5th circle, maybe 7th. Behold the wizard king! He's got 6th circle spellcasting. http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Alokkair

This comment itself is an example of my issues with the general atmosphere - we forget NPCs exist and adjust expectations and thus difficulty checks/skill rank judgements according to PCs. Checks and judgements when applied to NPCs, even with doubled levels/halved PC levels WILL result in 100% failure.
There are no different interpretations of the rules in d&d. There is only one interpretation that matters: Your current DM(s) interpretation. Anything else is irrelevant. In the case of general play, the rulings of the DM as a whole. If the DMs haven't made a ruling for a particular case, then you play as you like until they do. That is all there is to it. People can petition for a ruling to be made if something comes up, but the less than is done, the better it is for everyone (since more rules = fewer possibilities for RP).

I think you are reading too much into the rule, you are forgetting its intent and purpose. And forgetting that, in general, DMs enforce the rules pretty reasonably. You are narrowing in on the rules so much that you are damaging your ability to have fun playing. Literally a rule lawyer, but to your own detriment.

Also, you are following the source book. Not this BGTSCC PW. Different scalings. Of course, if you try to follow a different game's rules, you'll end up with FUBARed results.

Just remember, most of this is in your head. Its imagination and paranoia, from what I'm reading. If the rest of us don't really have to do as you say, why do you think you have to? Guess what. The rest of us can RP dodging without the dodge feat, or being a leader without the leadership feat. Nevermind being a religious person without the devout/true believer/sacred vow feat (lmao at this. If that were the case, you'd think divine characters would get it for free).

Being frank now: I think you need to step back, take a breath, get a grip, then think about this rationally. Right now, you sound like you've absolutely lost it.
Last edited by metaquad4 on Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Since the other thread raised the idea - here's the tria

Unread post by Rain »

Hoihe wrote:
metaquad4 wrote:
chad878262 wrote:That attack bonus is poor. You are going to need to equip as a sneak to make sure your hide skill allows you to always strike out of stealth.

You will get dispelled, everywhere. Not sure what you are using spells for as DC's are low, Caster level is 13 so lesser dispel has a chance to strip you. Regular dispel will likely strip at least half your wards, likely closer to all of them. Greater Dispel will strip you completely.

I would recommend dropping either Dualist or SB in favor of Eldritch Knight. SB5/W12/EK10/SD3 would have 1 more BAB and CL21 (25 if you can squeeze in practiced caster). You do lose INT to AC though. Another option might be W10/EK10/D7/SD3. Get's more AC, but loses a little damage which might be a good trade. Still get's CL19, 23 with Practiced Caster. In either case has 9th level spells and only really has to be worried about Greater Dispel, making wards more useful.

Play what you want, of course. I just think you will end up being upset that your CL13, BAB22 build is not performing well, because it has the BAB of a Medium class and CL only a little better than an Assassin. It's worse at being a Fighter than most 'true' gish builds and WAY worse at being a caster. AB for a HiPS character really wants to be 35 and Greater Heroism is only going to last you 13 minutes, you don't have a lot of 6th level spell slots. Damage isn't worth anything if you can't land a hit. AC is all well and good, but if you take ages to kill mobs and get surrounded you will struggle.

Not trying to play Debbie Downer, but I worry that much like your low STR Great Sword user you perhaps aren't seeing some pretty significant downsides the build will have.
History will come full circle (again). Not to flame you Hoihe, you are my friend and I love you for that. But, if you make/will only accept poor builds (due to stringent and unflexible requirements) then complain that your builds won't function, that is going to be on you.

You rejected the good ideas above, so you've backed yourself into a corner due to narrow requirements that'll give breed to a build that you won't enjoy playing. Maybe making a new character will solve this for you, give you more wiggle room with your build and maybe spark something that you'll really enjoy playing.

The AB is way below average. The damage is low-average. The AC is the only thing that is decent.

As said, if there wasn't the atmosphere that is prone to ignite at moment's notice for someone to pedantically point out that "Because you don't have this many ranks in this skill, or don't have this feat you are not playing your sheet." It already feels risky playing a religious character without the Devout background feat or True Believer/sacred vow.

And if the DMs also didn't prove that it's very possible to get screwed over majorly due to wildly differing interpretations of skill DCs (in equal conditions), I also wouldn't be so insistent on having Escape Artist and whatnot so high. KNowing my luck, I'll get screwed over still because the DM will decide that modifiers don't matter, the dice matters leading to amazing results of navigating a ship onto rocks in clear waters, clear skies and no currents. Because "challenge."

I don't mind challenge - but it needs to be appropriate. If Billy Bob, son of Henry, the Navigator does 2-5 trips a year between Mintarn/Waterdeep/Baldur's Gate without issue, then why should an adventurer, be they level 15 or 30, have issues doing the same during ideal weather?

Sure, Billy Bob, Son of Henry, the Navigator will fail to successfully navigate from Waterdeep to Mintarn if his maps are stolen, if his instruments broke, if the sky is perpetually cloudy. However, that's when there's an actual point to making someone with 20 ranks roll. Is their knowledge good enough to mitigate the ill circumnstances? As the saying goes, good navigators sail by the smell of sea. Chances are, barring wildly chaotic circumnstances over multiple days, someone with 20 ranks will likely succeed, but they may slip up.

Now, Billy Bob, Son of Henry won't find some random uncharted island based only on rumours while treading dark waters in a fog in overcast skies. Not even Kalma Hellstorm will find it easily. But unlike Billy Bob, Kalma Hellstorm has a chance as a level 15/20/30 adventurer.

Rain wrote:The only part i'm confused about is why are you even trying to have castable spells with something that is a martial based non caster class and skill point set-up?

If your not using it to get some form of PRC advancement like 5 bard into Pale master for crit immunity then what is the point of even trying to squeeze the already low caster level to a medium and still have the high possibility of getting your castable spells dispelled by NORMAL mobs and thus become useless spell slots.

You may as well just buy some wands and potions and use those to save yourself the low AB and BAB and thus at-least be an optimal up-front duelist/fighter then a non optimal novice trainee wizard who ditched wizard college to go to fighter college half way through the semester.
Vast majority of wizards barely has the 1st circle mastered, much less the 6th. While the 6th circle is definitely not mastery of the Arcane, it is a commendable grasp.

This comment itself is an example of my issues with the general atmosphere - we forget NPCs exist and adjust expectations and thus difficulty checks/skill rank judgements according to PCs.
That still doesn't explain the need to split your character class setup so wildly. Why not just still be that swashbuckler class set up without the wizard and just use the 100% RCR month to find ways to squeeze some more INT and skill points into your swashbuckler build instead of trying to use a caster class with the same needed attribute modifiers as a filler if skill points was your issue? Because from my understanding if you simply just went Swashbuckler/ duelist/ assassin you would be getting way more benefit from MAXing your INT then trying to "Mediumize" it for splitting two base classes that have no reason to be split anyway. AND you would still get most of your list above accomplished doing that.

EDIT: Also if you going to interpret FR mechanics into a Video game that quite literally does not follow it 100% of the time then your mistaken. Because as it stands in NWN2 9th level spells are a normality for PLAYERS, PLAYERS can achieve 9th level spells as an end goal in this game. So you trying to say that 6th level spells is suppose to make you a high and mighty wizards or sage of your casting progression is wrong as the facts are right there in your face. That guy over there at the FAI camp fire, Slow Bro Slink Back, knows 9th level spells. And hes suppose to be high and mighty, powerful mage? No it's what he wants to RP he is he doesn't need to RP hes absurdly powerful because that is simply game mechanics that quite frankly don't even give you the option to NOT be powerful if you simply wanted to be a plain 30 mage. So he needs to take his RP into consideration himself based on the current lore and setting of the server to say he is either a "Powerful mage" a "Average Mage" or simply a "Mage that doesn't really care to use his powers as he is just very studious."

It's an RP server, mechanics don't make up RP just as well as RP doesn't make up mechanics. Combining the two together to make a pleasurable character that works well in both aspects is what NWN2 is all about.
Last edited by Rain on Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:27 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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