18d6 Sneak dice build

[chad878262]

http://nwn2db.com/build/?291365

Idea is to get as much sneak damage as possible without giving up anything. This build has 18d6 sneak dice for an average of ~252 sneak damage coming out of stealth (18*3.5*4attacks) while still getting Epic Dodge. It loses out on getting Expose Weakness, but that feat is not as important for sneak attack based characters since attacking from stealth sets Dodge AC to zero (so the AC penalty won't help you land your sneak attacks).

For those wanting to play a high damage sneak without Monk, I think this would serve well and should have a chance to kill epic caster mobs in the first attack flurry. Still has the same weaknesses as any such character (low Fortitude and Will saves), which can be mitigated with equipment and consumables. Stealthy and SF: Hide are not really necessary and can be replaced with whatever feats you might want from an RP perspective. I also left enough skill points to max 2 skills of your choice (and you don't really need so many points in search and open locks either).

Blinding Strike will be a LOT of fun with this build. DC: 10 + 18 (sneak dice) + 6 (1/5 character level) + 4 (1/5 rogue levels so might be 3 depending on rounding up or down) = 38 DC or blinded for 1d4+1 rounds. Cooldown is 45 seconds, but I can attest to the effectiveness when used.

Feel free to give feedback/critique and of course chop the build up and change to your tastes if you're interested in playing something like this.

EDIT: Note that by dropping Bodyguard and going R21/A9 you can get Improved Sneak Attack 3, but this requires you to drop Great DEX 1 (and thus you can start DEX at 19 and add 3 points to STR if desired). Your BAB becomes 21 (instead of 23) so your AB is going to be 33 instead of 36, but this can be addressed with potions of heroism and other buffs. Really a personal choice, but for me the extra ~3.5 damage per sneak attack isn't worth the loss of speed (10% from NW9) and attack bonus.

[Kiran]

Drop Stealthy imo.

You get it from that Epic hood anyway.

[chad878262]

Drop Stealthy imo.

You get it from that Epic hood anyway.

Well I did say Stealthy and SF: Hide are pick-em's... They are not required for the success of the build and there are certainly plenty of options... Really the idea is to show you can make a Rogue without Monk that does just as much (actually a little more) damage. Of course there are other reasons adding 3 monk levels is great for a high sneak/assassin build (5x save vs. paralysis for example). However, conventional wisdom is that Monk/Rogue build or R/A/IB is the best/only two ways to go and this is simply not the case.

[Sun Wukong]

I would still go for a Rogue 11/Wilderness Stalker 10/Assassin 9. It gets only 14d6 Sneak Attack dice, but I would say that Swift Tracker makes up for it in plain good old utility. Camouflage ain't bad either.

Rogue 11/Wilderness Stalker 7/Assassin 9/Bodyguard 3 gets 15d6 Sneak Attack dice at the cost of pretty much just one point of AC. In otherwords, when you are in the wilderness, you are a rather speedy sneaker.

Hmn...

Then, if you switch Two-Weapon Fighting into Manyshot, you can pretty much just pick your prey at your own leisure. You have BAB of 24, so 5 attacks by default, +1 from Improved Rapid Shot, and +1 from Haste effect such as Blinding Speed to a total of 7. In otherwords, your first attack flurry contains all Manyshot attacks.

3*20*3.5 = 210~

Sure, the damage output is slightly lower, but distance creates safety and all that.

[chad878262]

Good points SW, but point was high damage ptwf without monk.

[Sun Wukong]

Good points SW, but point was high damage ptwf without monk.

If we take that build of yours, it could get a total of 22d6 Sneak Attack Dice with Manyshot and deal something like 231~ per avarage first flurry.

And yeah, I know that two-weapon fighting rogues are the bread and butter choice on this server due to the rule of cool, but ranged sneaks do come with their own perks too even if their maximum damage output is slightly lower.

The conversion is an easy thing to do:

Two-Weapon Fighting => Point Blank Shot
Weapon Finesse => Rapid Shot
Improved Two-Weapon Fighting => Manyshot
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting => Improved Rapid Shot
Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting => (((Insert any epic feat here, like Blinding Speed or something, yet I do not think you can squeeze another Extra Sneak Attack Dice without delaying your ability to use HiPS into the late epics)))

[Tekill]

Okay here is my attempt at a high(ish) sneak dice build.
-Staying with PTWF,
-Keeping EW,
-Taking blinding strike at level 30,
-It gives alternative to using monk by talking Sun's idea of adding Wilderness Stalker instead.
-3 levels of WS- for fast tracking- lots of fun.
-Does not sacrifice any great feats like-Still gets epic dodge and precision.


http://nwn2db.com/build/?294738

Should work- Im thinking of giving it a go....yet another alt!

Whaddya think?
I probably do not need Int that high...

[chad878262]

If you drop stealthy you can get blinding strike earlier and get expose weakness. Even though the is no benefit to AC the bleed damage is still nice to have.

[Deathgrowl]

Isn't rogue21/assassin9 getting all that jazz? That's already 16 SAs before picking any epic feats. Can you even get more than that?

I suppose rogue27/sd3 will have more epic feats to spend on SAs, but is 14 SAs before picking any, so it ends up being similar. But no Death attack.

[Born2BeWild]

http://nwn2db.com/build/?291365

It loses out on getting Expose Weakness, but that feat is not as important for sneak attack based characters since attacking from stealth sets Dodge AC to zero (so the AC penalty won't help you land your sneak attacks).

Uncanny dodge=no dodge ac loss, so EW is still pretty good

[chad878262]

http://nwn2db.com/build/?291365

It loses out on getting Expose Weakness, but that feat is not as important for sneak attack based characters since attacking from stealth sets Dodge AC to zero (so the AC penalty won't help you land your sneak attacks).

Uncanny dodge=no dodge ac loss, so EW is still pretty good

No argument there, the Bleed Damage increase actually made EW BETTER for high stealth/sneak attack builds since the AC loss never benefited them. However, if you don't get EW it's not the end of the world... It is up to the individual if 2 Improved Sneak Attack feats are better than Epic Prowess/Expose Weakness (For 30 DEX you're deciding between stacking ~20 bleed damage each round vs. ~28 damage per round in sneak dice). My opinion is the extra sneak dice are better in PvP and for mobs while EW is better on bosses where over many rounds EW will do more damage than the extra sneak dice. PvP for a sneak attack based build is generally over in a couple rounds anyway...Either you take out the target in that first flurry or they kill you before HiPS cooldown ends... Phantom is another story entirely, of course.

I generally concern myself primarily with PvE and for a top end sneak attack character the goal should be to have the ability to solo the Frost Giant King. While the bleed damage does help, I find that, in general those first few rounds you will not be able to stack EW because you come out of stealth, land your first flurry and then run like hell before his pulse attack hits you. He then throws a dispel, you go hide somewhere andd reapply essential wards, then go throw another flurry before running away. It can be a close thing with him as if a few of his more powerful spells/abilities (or attacks before you've stacking crippling strike several times) hit you. However, once the first ~4-6 rounds are over it's just a matter of hips/attack spam. Expose Weakness would kill him faster, but if you made it to that point it really doesn't matter. Meanwhile those extra 2d6 sneak dice may be the difference between killing Frost Giant Mystics in one round or not. They can be trouble for a sneak who has just attacked out of HiPS since you can't use a wand after attacking and they are likely to slam you with an IGMS. So IMO those mobs dying in the first flurry are a top priority.

The same can be said for the Yuan-Ti Temple and Naga's as well as many other epic area's. As a sneak bleed damage is nice, but killing in the first flurry is far more conducive to survival.

[aaron22]

alternatively, you could go Ph30 that has 15d6 SA dice. gains 3 bonus epic feats to go with the 5 epic feats all but PTWF taken for SA dice for a grand total of 22d6 SA damage. NOw you are a one trick pony here, but could be fun to issue that kind of damage on a "limited" amount of ghost steps/walks.

a bow phantom could be utilized for 23d6 SA out of a wis phantom.

[chad878262]

alternatively, you could go Ph30 that has 15d6 SA dice. gains 3 bonus epic feats to go with the 5 epic feats all but PTWF taken for SA dice for a grand total of 22d6 SA damage. NOw you are a one trick pony here, but could be fun to issue that kind of damage on a "limited" amount of ghost steps/walks.

a bow phantom could be utilized for 23d6 SA out of a wis phantom.

Interesting Aaron, but I would say P21/A9 is still the better option. 16d6 SA dice, but loses the 3 bonus epic feats. However, what it gains is the ability to alternate from HiPS to Ghost Step, avoiding dispels and any other retaliatory spells/attacks. There was some discussion on making Ghost Step have a 3 round cooldown or something so as to avoid this, but not sure if it has or will be implemented. In any case, after PTWF this build could still hit 20d6 SA dice with enough benefits to be worth it. 2d6 SA dice in exchange for HiPS and Death Attack is a fair trade all day! ~280 sneak attack damage in the 4 attack flurry out of stealth vs. ~308. However, you are now able to immediately re-hide and thus the loss of Epic Dodge from P25/SD5 is no big deal... If you aren't there, you can't be hit!

[aaron22]

of course Chad. Not an optimal build, but it has the most SA dice I could think to fit in a single build. and has a escape plan if not limited.

I'm not saying I would not play it. I am prolly more likely to play a build that is quirky like that then a "standard" "this makes more sense." "Just play this instead of that garbage" build.

Builds like this are why I have 20 characters

[aaron22]

speaking of improved SA, does DA, SA from rogue/phantom and other classes like BG or WS stack to grant the req 8d6 SA for this feat line?