Since the other thread raised the idea - here's the trial -

[Hoihe]

How do you survive your cloudspells without warding up?

Cloudkill - does what it says on the tin. As an elf, you likely don't have enough fort to resist it, and you get dispelled if you do ward up to get the fort needed.

Acid cloud - need energy immunity which gets dispelled.

As for 2H users - how does that explain Aaron's mentioned character that deals 200-800 dmg/round? Swb5/wiz5/EK10/BS10 does nowhere that damage. if you drop swb5, you don't even deal more than 20 damage and get even less AB.

I party with dwarves and such frequently, and see them deal 40-60 damage per hit with little to no risk. Using a 1 handed dwaxe.

Where are enemies in PvE who will spam IGMs/Bigby at you? Sounds like a PvP issue to me. Far as I was told, we don't balance around PvP.

I will concede that my build has better "Anti- Shit Hits the Fan" buttons than a fighter. But you only get so many presses of the "Anti- Shit Hits the Fan" button, and if you use it too early you won't have it when you need it.

Pressing the "Anti- Shit Hits the Fan" button tends to guarantee I walk away/survive even stupid amounts of DM mobs. But after the smoke clears? I'm literally useless unless I have magic-less viability.

And UMD/HiPS acts the same way as my "Anti SHTF" button. In fact, HiPS is the primary component of my "Anti SHTF" tactic. And a literal ton of alchemist's fires/acid flasks/fire bombs/greases/webs/disables.

Just because the button exists though doesn't mean I am more viable. It just allows me to survive ridiculous ambushes.

[aaron22]

how does that explain Aaron's mentioned character that deals 200-800 dmg/round?

Come on down to No. Tradeway and I'll show you. It will be like a training lesson. It will be fun.

[chad878262]

How do you survive your cloudspells without warding up?

Option a) aim the cloud spell properly so it only hits your enemies who you have drawn to an acceptable terrain of your choosing (a choke point)

Option b) cast the one ward you need in order to be immune to your own cloud. This is a less efficient option, thus it is better to use option a, which I used to be TERRIBLE at (ask Calodan), but which I have improved considerably.

Cloudkill - does what it says on the tin. As an elf, you likely don't have enough fort to resist it, and you get dispelled if you do ward up to get the fort needed.

Not if you use it when there is a low probability of dispel. Regular dispel has 5% chance to work against CL24 and many mobs even in epic areas only have regular dispel. Greater Dispel you should not use such a tactic unless you have practiced option a (above) as I had to do to become more skilled. IC'ly this works beautifully by the way, because if I was my Bladesinger, I'd do just what I had him do...Go to a less dangerous (lower CR) area and PRACTICE my tactics. Then, once comfortable take them to a higher CR area and see how it works. (Spoiler alert: It works really well!)

Acid cloud - need energy immunity which gets dispelled.

See option a.

As for 2H users - how does that explain Aaron's mentioned character that deals 200-800 dmg/round? Swb5/wiz5/EK10/BS10 does nowhere that damage. if you drop swb5, you don't even deal more than 20 damage and get even less AB.

Ask Aaron how much AC and how good the saves are on that 200-800 damage build. It probably needs (dispellable) wards from UMD/potions to even hit bare minimum acceptable AC and it likely has Will saves about on par with a HiPS Rogue/Assassin. My Bladesinger has AC in the high 40's at level 24 and can hit mid-50's at 30 with full epic gear. On top of this he is doing ~33*6= ~198 damage if all attacks hit and with 15-20 crit range likely quite a bit more. Add in Cloud spells damage and it goes higher. I would say it compares just fine!

I party with dwarves and such frequently, and see them deal 40-60 damage per hit with little to no risk. Using a 1 handed dwaxe.

Frankly, in a party no one is at much risk... However, dwarf like any race depends on the build... Dwarven Defender is one of the very best PRC's though and Karond's famous Water Cleric Dwarven Defender is still likely one of the most powerful builds there is for PvE.

Where are enemies in PvE who will spam IGMs/Bigby at you? Sounds like a PvP issue to me. Far as I was told, we don't balance around PvP.

Frost Giant Mystics can cast IGMS... I once got hit with three in a row. It was unpleasant. Same thing happened in that Zygurat / pyramid thing with the Noble Fire Salamandars... Got hit with 2 IGMS's in a row...also unpleasant, but my PC did live that time (barely). If you didn't know this, I don't PvP... I have engaged in a total of 4 PvP's in the four years I have played and one was RP PvP only (typing, using dice rolls, etc.) When I discuss things that happen in game, it is from a PvE perspective.

By the way, as early as CR10 (minotaurs) you can get hit with Bigby and Missile Storms (though they might be the lesser version). If you are there with a CR appropriate PC, that is a very dangerous boss to solo unless you can prevent or defend against those spells.

Pressing the "Anti- (#2) Hits the Fan" button tends to guarantee I walk away/survive even stupid amounts of DM mobs. But after the smoke clears? I'm literally useless unless I have magic-less viability.

We have provided nearly a dozen options of builds that would fit. My SB/W/EK/BS is far from useless without magic, he's only slightly worse off than a INT/DEX Swashbuckler/Duelist. His damage is the same, but without magic his AC/AB is slightly worse (~3-4 AB, 6 AC worse if completely stripped down to just equipment). However, the chances of him being completely out of options to improve his offense and defense through spells or items is pretty remote.

This is not the only way to build it, there are many others. Frankly, HiPS can be great defense against dispels and wands can be used as backups in DM Events to great effect. That is what Wizards do man...they have scrolls, wands and potions to help back them up when their own spell reserves are dwindling. Heck I almost always carry a wand of grease on all my characters...so versatile!

Just because the button exists though doesn't mean I am more viable. It just allows me to survive ridiculous ambushes.

Surviving any situation, even (or especially) the unexpected is a big part of viability, I would argue... The other part is knowing your strengths and weaknesses and learning where you can thrive and where you will struggle. Some builds can take on anything...others should not go try to slay the Balor alone. I have builds that can solo the Frost Giant King, but get to cocky, even against the Pit Fiend in Nashkel Mines and you get a free trip to the fugue. Know your build, learn how to play that build, figure out the unique spells, abilities, etc. that have the most synergy for THAT build and it will perform better, regardless if it is Tier 1 or Tier 4. I play some Tier 2 or even 3 builds that have received comments from some players they are OP. They aren't, but it looks that way because I mask the weaknesses in the build and find ways to enhance the strengths. I couldn't have done that two or three years ago, but for those classes/builds/mechanics I have focused on I can. It takes time, patience and a willingness to be wrong and learn from it.

[Hoihe]

How do you survive your cloudspells without warding up?

Option a) aim the cloud spell properly so it only hits your enemies who you have drawn to an acceptable terrain of your choosing (a choke point)

Option b) cast the one ward you need in order to be immune to your own cloud. This is a less efficient option, thus it is better to use option a, which I used to be TERRIBLE at (ask Calodan), but which I have improved considerably.

Cloudkill - does what it says on the tin. As an elf, you likely don't have enough fort to resist it, and you get dispelled if you do ward up to get the fort needed.

Not if you use it when there is a low probability of dispel. Regular dispel has 5% chance to work against CL24 and many mobs even in epic areas only have regular dispel. Greater Dispel you should not use such a tactic unless you have practiced option a (above) as I had to do to become more skilled. IC'ly this works beautifully by the way, because if I was my Bladesinger, I'd do just what I had him do...Go to a less dangerous (lower CR) area and PRACTICE my tactics. Then, once comfortable take them to a higher CR area and see how it works. (Spoiler alert: It works really well!)

Acid cloud - need energy immunity which gets dispelled.

See option a.

As for 2H users - how does that explain Aaron's mentioned character that deals 200-800 dmg/round? Swb5/wiz5/EK10/BS10 does nowhere that damage. if you drop swb5, you don't even deal more than 20 damage and get even less AB.

Ask Aaron how much AC and how good the saves are on that 200-800 damage build. It probably needs (dispellable) wards from UMD/potions to even hit bare minimum acceptable AC and it likely has Will saves about on par with a HiPS Rogue/Assassin. My Bladesinger has AC in the high 40's at level 24 and can hit mid-50's at 30 with full epic gear. On top of this he is doing ~33*6= ~198 damage if all attacks hit and with 15-20 crit range likely quite a bit more. Add in Cloud spells damage and it goes higher. I would say it compares just fine!

I party with dwarves and such frequently, and see them deal 40-60 damage per hit with little to no risk. Using a 1 handed dwaxe.

Frankly, in a party no one is at much risk... However, dwarf like any race depends on the build... Dwarven Defender is one of the very best PRC's though and Karond's famous Water Cleric Dwarven Defender is still likely one of the most powerful builds there is for PvE.

Where are enemies in PvE who will spam IGMs/Bigby at you? Sounds like a PvP issue to me. Far as I was told, we don't balance around PvP.

Frost Giant Mystics can cast IGMS... I once got hit with three in a row. It was unpleasant. Same thing happened in that Zygurat / pyramid thing with the Noble Fire Salamandars... Got hit with 2 IGMS's in a row...also unpleasant, but my PC did live that time (barely). If you didn't know this, I don't PvP... I have engaged in a total of 4 PvP's in the four years I have played and one was RP PvP only (typing, using dice rolls, etc.) When I discuss things that happen in game, it is from a PvE perspective.

By the way, as early as CR10 (minotaurs) you can get hit with Bigby and Missile Storms (though they might be the lesser version). If you are there with a CR appropriate PC, that is a very dangerous boss to solo unless you can prevent or defend against those spells.

Pressing the "Anti- (#2) Hits the Fan" button tends to guarantee I walk away/survive even stupid amounts of DM mobs. But after the smoke clears? I'm literally useless unless I have magic-less viability.

We have provided nearly a dozen options of builds that would fit. My SB/W/EK/BS is far from useless without magic, he's only slightly worse off than a INT/DEX Swashbuckler/Duelist. His damage is the same, but without magic his AC/AB is slightly worse (~3-4 AB, 6 AC worse if completely stripped down to just equipment). However, the chances of him being completely out of options to improve his offense and defense through spells or items is pretty remote.

This is not the only way to build it, there are many others. Frankly, HiPS can be great defense against dispels and wands can be used as backups in DM Events to great effect. That is what Wizards do man...they have scrolls, wands and potions to help back them up when their own spell reserves are dwindling. Heck I almost always carry a wand of grease on all my characters...so versatile!

Just because the button exists though doesn't mean I am more viable. It just allows me to survive ridiculous ambushes.

Surviving any situation, even (or especially) the unexpected is a big part of viability, I would argue... The other part is knowing your strengths and weaknesses and learning where you can thrive and where you will struggle. Some builds can take on anything...others should not go try to slay the Balor alone. I have builds that can solo the Frost Giant King, but get to cocky, even against the Pit Fiend in Nashkel Mines and you get a free trip to the fugue. Know your build, learn how to play that build, figure out the unique spells, abilities, etc. that have the most synergy for THAT build and it will perform better, regardless if it is Tier 1 or Tier 4. I play some Tier 2 or even 3 builds that have received comments from some players they are OP. They aren't, but it looks that way because I mask the weaknesses in the build and find ways to enhance the strengths. I couldn't have done that two or three years ago, but for those classes/builds/mechanics I have focused on I can. It takes time, patience and a willingness to be wrong and learn from it.

And where/how can I use "I have an amazing anti-SHTF button"?

Just fighting bosses over and over again will net you very little progress.

And I only care for PvE when there's nobody to RP with so "Progress through RP" has little meaning here as... PvE is done to fill the lull between RP and possibly meet people on the road.

[chad878262]

Have you ever considered making an alt for those times when RP isn't available? Make a more 'normal' build, with a back story or without, but focus on ensuring it attains the MECHANICS you want to have and make sure the RP is made to support them instead of the other way around. Play your RP build and simply never grind/PvE. If you're going to do PvE play your alt which is built with the rules of this servers mechanics in mind.

Just a thought, but you may be happier with this route...It just seems that no decent Tier 2/3 mechanically viable build options are going to be acceptable to you, or if they are you are not experienced enough with the specific play style to execute them. This is not an indictment of your skills or a L2P statement. As I've said there are play styles for which I am not good at and others that I am better at. The same is true for most of us as players. Play a strong build you are good at and let the RP occur organically as you PvE. Keep Atria for when there are players in game you want/need to RP with to progress story. You'll likely be happier for it.

[Hoihe]

Have you ever considered making an alt for those times when RP isn't available? Make a more 'normal' build, with a back story or without, but focus on ensuring it attains the MECHANICS you want to have and make sure the RP is made to support them instead of the other way around. Play your RP build and simply never grind/PvE. If you're going to do PvE play your alt which is built with the rules of this servers mechanics in mind.

Just a thought, but you may be happier with this route...It just seems that no decent Tier 2/3 mechanically viable build options are going to be acceptable to you, or if they are you are not experienced enough with the specific play style to execute them. This is not an indictment of your skills or a L2P statement. As I've said there are play styles for which I am not good at and others that I am better at. The same is true for most of us as players. Play a strong build you are good at and let the RP occur organically as you PvE. Keep Atria for when there are players in game you want/need to RP with to progress story. You'll likely be happier for it.

Only reason I tolerate the mechanics and the usual air of noxious fumes associated with NWN2 is to play on Atria. Both for mechanics and RP otherwise there are other options.

[Steve]

...there are other options.

And thus this Thread ends!!

[Hoihe]

...there are other options.

And thus this Thread ends!!

Options which include neither Atria or the people i enjoy rping with/characters i enjoy interacting with. Granted nocious fumes have led to the choking of some people i knew and their evacuation to cleaner atmospheres. Still i choose to persevere for who remains, and the occasional truly new and innocent player unmarred by the corrosive splotches of vitriol. Who i run risk of outlasting due to unwelcoming mechanics so..

[Steve]

I, Pope Steve the First, do canonize you as:

Hoihe the Living Martyr.



Let's try this one on, Hoihe: I recognize your suffering, and understand that you cannot accept the mechanics of BGTSCC, such as they are. Your suffering in the way of non-acceptance, is deep and heavy. And so with a true desire to see you unleash yourself from this suffering, I, in the most humble way, leave you with this:

It's just a game.

[Rain]

I, Pope Steve the First, do canonize you as:

Hoihe the Living Martyr.



Let's try this one on, Hoihe: I recognize your suffering, and understand that you cannot accept the mechanics of BGTSCC, such as they are. Your suffering in the way of non-acceptance, is deep and heavy. And so with a true desire to see you unleash yourself from this suffering, I, in the most humble way, leave you with this:

It's just a game.

Oh snap is that the real Pope Steve 1st of his name!?!?

Truely an honor to read such wisdom.

[aaron22]

OK guys.

We can discuss builds and viability and the server's mechanics till we are blue. I bet most of us are already. How about another approach.

Hoihe, The game is what it is. No sense in bothering with that. How about you do something different with your RP. play a different style. play something completely different than atria or whoever. Play a Dwarf Warrior. play a RWoT. Play a halfling thief of shadows. A drow jabbress. Whatever. Play something outside your wheel house. Give yourself a new pasture to graze. Something crazy.. Play a human who is learning the world for the first time and adapting to the environment. Take a new look. One without preconceived notions of what is powerful or grand. One that really explores and learns. One that finds a niche and thrives in it.

Have fun out here with us.

[Tsidkenu]

And that is as far as this thread goes.