missing +4 stat items (STR, CON, CHA)

[metaquad4]

@Hoihe:
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Both my bladesinger builds and dragonslayer gish builds all end up with 28-30 (My prefered ones end up with 30 CL, but if you don't fancy dipping 4 bloodmage you'd be just fine with CL 29). Frankly, you must be really gimping yourself to end up with that low of a caster level. If you are playing with a gimpy build, that is your own choice to gimp yourself. Its not the server shafting you (And since you do have a history of gimpy builds, I am inclined to say that it contributes to this experience you have).

Its not luck that gets you a higher CL bladesinger gish. Its competancy when it comes to building.

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I don't remember having much difficulty dealing with mobs when I had +3 gear. None, in-fact. And the same with when +4 stat items were not a thing. Back when I didn't know how to properly grind, I never saw any epic loot. I still rarely see epic loot, and I only recently got decked out a couple years ago. And I current do just as well with +4 gear as with the old +3 gear.

Granted, if you make your builds around having those specific items to mechanically function. . .you might have some difficulty. But, that is your build's issue. Not a problem with gear.

---
So:
*A decent bladesinger gish with a CL higher than 21 is fully doable and is probably stronger than its 21 CL compatriot.

*+4 Gear isn't impossible to acquire (people have it, you know) and doesn't "shaft ability to play the game" (people who don't have it can still play, and our current mobs existed before it did).

*Mob ABs aren't balanced around +4 AC Gear (most people don't have +4 gear when they level from 1-30. Folks tend to get it after they have been 30 for a while.).

*There are epic areas without dispels. Reach Woods comes to mind IIRC, I'm sure someone has a full list. I remember one was kicking around somewhere on a fourm post.

*Top end bosses aren't actually required to make money. I hardly ever farm them, they aren't as efficient for me. The only times I do them are with a partner who can solo them or a group. The only bosses I do are: Chaos, Frost Giant King, the Naga Queen, the Gullykin Lich, Wyrmthrax, and the Gnoll Warlock Chieftain. Aka the easy bosses.

The thing that makes gold is chests. Its quantity over quality, you won't be missing much from skipping out on a most of the bosses. Hit up all the chests (minus boss chests if you must avoid them) every time they reset when you are on. You'll have lots of adventure RP to do if you do it with friends, and you'll make plenty of money.

Thats all looting is. Quantity over quality. As long as you get the most chests that your build is capable of getting, you are doing it right. It doesn't matter where the chests came from. Vendor trash will end up adding up to 20k-50k a run, sometimes even a bit more.

*To properly HiPs dance, you need to:
a) Time it right. This is intuitive and takes practise.
b) Untarget the enemy.
c) Backpedal with WASD.

*You can actually burn spellcasters NPCs down. You do, however, need decent damage. And that takes a decent build. Or at-least a build specced for burst damage.

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Being overly dramatic about a percieved issue doesn't help you make your statement.

[Hoihe]

Let's see...

Swashbuckler 5/wizard10/bladesinger 10/EK5/ - Cl of +4 + 10 + 5 +5 = 24. Has no Evasion, and because of MAD and low hit die classes, has no HP. Needs evasion. Cannot rely on immunities because dispel spam. Needs 10 BS to get decent AC.

Swashbuckler 5/wizard 12/Bladesinger 10/shadowdancer 3- Cl of 4 + 12 + 5 = 21. Has Evasion, has practically no AB, has pratically no Cl.

Eschewing Swashbuckler nets you practically no damage. It is mandatory to pick.


Getting gold requires you to have strength because as you said quantity > quality. Intelligence gishes cannot afford to have strength because of MAD.


Chaos has a dispel and rips you to shreds, especially if you rely on sneak/critical/swashbuckler for dealing decent damage.

Frost Giant King is high-end.

The entire Serpent Hills is high end. Massive AB on every single mob that rips you to pieces even with 49 AC.

HiPS thus requires decent ping. Fun if you're not an american!

Server was made harder thanks to the lovely scaling mob feature boosting their ABs.

For visiting an area to be viable, one needs the higher trash mob's AB + 20 as their AC. Anything lower and you have to spam healing.

If you are a veteran, you'll have 3 austruth flutes, 3 mad gent's gloves, a bunch of Canteens/Ladles, maybe a Ring of Untherite Generals and carry a stack of 30 bottles of Heal for emergency healing with 30 bottles of Lesser Restore/Antidote on the side.

This is a massive weight to carry around at even a 10 + 4 = 14 strength. You'll have 50 weight going at you, leaving like 20-40 lbs for loot which is about 1 armour.

Now if you are NOT a veteran, you'll use healing kits. Meaning all your gold goes down the drain AND you have no room to carry stuff.

[chad878262]

Swashbuckler 5/wizard10/bladesinger 10/EK5/ - Cl of +4 + 10 + 5 +5 = 24. Has no Evasion, and because of MAD and low hit die classes, has no HP. Needs evasion. Cannot rely on immunities because dispel spam. Needs 10 BS to get decent AC.

SB5/W5/BS10/EK10. Needs no Evasion, HP aren't great, but not terrible either, has CL24, so what? Does really good damage, has AC over 50 when equipped for end game (AC only drops to ~43 if completely dispelled). Gets 6 APR with good damage, has enough spell slots to do a lot of fun stuff (buffing, song of celerity, clouds, emergency, etc.)

Swashbuckler 5/wizard 12/Bladesinger 10/shadowdancer 3- Cl of 4 + 12 + 5 = 21. Has Evasion, has practically no AB, has pratically no Cl.

W6/BS10/EK10/SD4 - CL25, has evasion, has plenty of AB, has fine CL and HiPS to protect from dispel. If anything struggles for damage, needs cloud spells to help against some mobs.

Eschewing Swashbuckler nets you practically no damage. It is mandatory to pick.

No, it isn't, it is mandatory if you refuse to use other methods of getting damage. EW gives bleed damage, clouds give DoT, it's not just the damage you do with your sword that hurts enemies.

Getting gold requires you to have strength because as you said quantity > quality. Intelligence gishes cannot afford to have strength because of MAD.

You can have 12 STR, 16 after Bulls without too much issue. Your issue is you want CHA (which unfortunately should be a dump stat, left at 10 max) and DEX and INT and STR. Sorry, that's not MAD, it is you trying to have max ability scores in the ones you need mechanically while having RP only stats. If you want the one, you have to give up a bit of the other.

Chaos has a dispel and rips you to shreds, especially if you rely on sneak/critical/swashbuckler for dealing decent damage.

Unless you handle him correctly. Send in a Summon with one buff to eat the dispel or dispel minimally and then use Jaunt to rebuff. I prefer the first method.

Frost Giant King is high-end.

I used to think that too...He's not. He has a couple of strong Nova's and then he's got nothing left he can hurt you with. Send in a minimally buffed summon to eat the dispel, dodge the pulse and then just wail on him with cloud spells and your sword. Stacking Expose Weakness Bleed Damage starts adding up fast.

The entire Serpent Hills is high end. Massive AB on every single mob that rips you to pieces even with 49 AC.

I tend to agree, with a gish it's a PITA. It's also one area and there SHOULD be area's that require or reward going with a party.

HiPS thus requires decent ping. Fun if you're not an american!

Don't know what to tell you. I think other countries (at least the ones I've visited) still have good internet, not just the US. *shrug* sorry?

Server was made harder thanks to the lovely scaling mob feature boosting their ABs.

*sigh*

For visiting an area to be viable, one needs the higher trash mob's AB + 20 as their AC. Anything lower and you have to spam healing.

Hopefully the build I made for you helps.

If you are a veteran, you'll have 3 austruth flutes, 3 mad gent's gloves, a bunch of Canteens/Ladles, maybe a Ring of Untherite Generals and carry a stack of 30 bottles of Heal for emergency healing with 30 bottles of Lesser Restore/Antidote on the side.

Hmm, I must need to L2P... I don't have any of those things... Well, my one PC does have a couple pairs of mad gent's gloves and most of my characters carry ~10 healing potions and a couple lesser restoration just in case...But I don't think I own a single austruth flute, never found a ring of Untherite Generals, but that sounds cool... Gratz on the coll item?

This is a massive weight to carry around at even a 10 + 4 = 14 strength. You'll have 50 weight going at you, leaving like 20-40 lbs for loot which is about 1 armour.

Take less Charisma? Can't have it all.

Now if you are NOT a veteran, you'll use healing kits. Meaning all your gold goes down the drain AND you have no room to carry stuff.

*shrug* I still use heal kits, potions of heal, wands of cure moderate/serious wounds, gloves, whatever I can find...Depends on the PC and how much STR they have... Play to your PC's strengths AND weaknesses.

[ARHicks00]

Should STR, CON, CHA +4 stat items be added, I believe that STR and CHA will likely be a helm (or at least occupy the same slot) to avoid EDM stacking cheese. CON would likely be either amulet, bracers or helm. The goal with stat items has always been to limit how many you can equip, especially with items that have synergy. Honestly it's a bit of a bummer that INT and DEX don't occupy the same slot IMO.

Kind of doesn't make sense to have them since everything else is +4

[ARHicks00]

I used to think that too...He's not. He has a couple of strong Nova's and then he's got nothing left he can hurt you with. Send in a minimally buffed summon to eat the dispel, dodge the pulse and then just wail on him with cloud spells and your sword. Stacking Expose Weakness Bleed Damage starts adding up fast.

That sounds pretty high end to me. You got a tank his nukes and dodge his attacks while stacking attacking, debuffs and DOTs. I had a character in another server who rarely had to do output you just described.

Server was made harder thanks to the lovely scaling mob feature boosting their ABs.

Not just that, but a lack of sygnecy classes that boost damage allow for spellcasters to get maintain high spellcasting levels. Lack feats melee feats. Bad attempt at a home brewing rules a server. Bad attempt to turn the game into a mmorpg with high end game. Laslty, devianting from the monster manual. That is a few of things that make the server hard.

[aaron22]

From the peanut gallery

I do not think we should have +4 on all stats on items. I think that we move further and further from a coop game and more to a solo game and this amplifies it somewhat. It also makes a rich get richer movement as these items would not be free. but less on that really.

Mainly I want to see the best buffs come when you group up or at least duo. It is the heart of this game and what I continue to strive for.

Solo is a need.
Group is a want.
Can we keep it that way please.

Thanks

[chad878262]

That sounds pretty high end to me. You got a tank his nukes and dodge his attacks while stacking attacking, debuffs and DOTs. I had a character in another server who rarely had to do output you just described.

Perhaps, but very little of it is 'required'. If you have a Fighter/Barbarian type of build with Steadfast the pulse attack will never be a concern. If you are a caster you can likely make yourself immune. I usually play a sneak, so he dodges or he gets fugued. He doesn't have cloud spells and the stacking debuff is a mode (so once you turn it on, it fires automatically). So for my rogue it's attack, RUN!!! HiPS, go out of sight and rebuff, attack, RUN!!! HiPS rinse repeat until he stops casting spells and starts auto-attacking at which point it's just HiPS, Attack.

For a fighter type it is pretty much a boss you can auto-attack other than POSSIBLY using a heal pot or 3 and maybe a wand if the situation calls for it.

For a Caster well, I'm pretty sure if you get lucky you can one-shot FGK... If not, there are still cloud spells and standard wizard tactics.

Requiring different tactics for different build types makes things fun.

Mainly I want to see the best buffs come when you group up or at least duo. It is the heart of this game and what I continue to strive for.

I lament I don't have many PCs that would deign to travel with your dirty, filthy orcs... We have many similar preferences for playing this game.

[ARHicks00]

From the peanut gallery

I do not think we should have +4 on all stats on items. I think that we move further and further from a coop game and more to a solo game and this amplifies it somewhat. It also makes a rich get richer movement as these items would not be free. but less on that really.

Mainly I want to see the best buffs come when you group up or at least duo. It is the heart of this game and what I continue to strive for.

Solo is a need.
Group is a want.
Can we keep it that way please.

Thanks

1. Dude +4 items balance the game out for simple fact non magic classes can enchance their attributes without having to depend magic classes to do it.

2. The NWN, both sequels, were created for solo play only. Nothing in the game remotely requires group effort unless deviant from the player handbook monster CR. As it stands, Clerics, some bards, Mages, and Druids can all solo this game. Barbarians, Fighters, Rogue, and some rangers can't solo due (these problems are not universal) to the lack of stealth, damage output to their enemies, damage reduction, to themselves, and lack of buffs. We can talk about minor ways to compensate for what they lack, but at the end of day, it does not stop the fact that he spellcasting classed do not need non-magic classes to do the content in this server.

Non magic classes can solo but it requires them to have access to high end grar early and/or be over the CR level of the enemy NPCs. Spellcasting class can solo content of the same level or somewhat above their level.

3. Unless you give every tank class the same taunt feats as Man of Arms, there is no reasons to have non magic tank in the group since this is not a mmorpg and you can't hold aggro. You are better off having groups than of spellcasters than a mix bag. (Unless for RP reasons) Include a 27 Wizard and a 3 rogue, you pretty much have need for a real rogue.

[Svabodnik]

[...]I do not think we should have +4 on all stats on items. I think that we move further and further from a coop game and more to a solo game and this amplifies it somewhat. It also makes a rich get richer movement as these items would not be free. but less on that really.[...]

With certain builds quite a bit of (if not most of) the content is already solo-able. Worst-case scenario, I see the addition of +4 items as potentially only giving more versatility for solo builds. Their exclusion does nothing to prevent the playstyle, if the player is sufficiently determined.

I'm someone who prefers to solo, but also enjoys having a solid RP core behind the concept (I typically start out with a certain story/aesthetic for a character, and then try and realize a build which matches that initial RP core concept to the best of my ability). In that regard, I've already had plenty of success, even without looking to copy cheeky top-tier builds. Still, there's room for some sideways expansion for alternatives that do not rely as heavily on UMD.

Anyways, more high-end items do not make the 'rich richer', unless you're just talking about Appraise re-sellers (which from my experience have had solid merchant roleplay once they decided to pursue that route, so the existence of that niche only adds to the cross-character interplay on the server rather than detract from it). More equipment slot options means that there are more reasons for people with stockpiles of gold to get rid of said stockpiles. If what chad878262 said in regards to wand-use is true, then going for a +4 EB item rather than re-applying wands may actually be a net loss in wealth anyhoo.

Moreover, why the need to prevent soloing in the first place? Any-and-all content is already made much easier if you have at least one other player with you. Likewise, the [deafeningly loud as of late] server balance of Dispels benefits having a close-to-full CL buffer in your party rather than relying on UMD consumables. Aside from +4 EB bonuses to Ability scores, all full-spellcasting classes have enough class-specific buffs to make their presence palpable, and maybe it would even free up some spell slots for a mage who wants to have a couple more offensive/utility spells in their lineup rather than just buff-and-snoozing.

[ARHicks00]

[...]I do not think we should have +4 on all stats on items. I think that we move further and further from a coop game and more to a solo game and this amplifies it somewhat. It also makes a rich get richer movement as these items would not be free. but less on that really.[...]

With certain builds quite a bit of (if not most of) the content is already solo-able. Worst-case scenario, I see the addition of +4 items as potentially only giving more versatility for solo builds. Their exclusion does nothing to prevent the playstyle, if the player is sufficiently determined.

I'm someone who prefers to solo, but also enjoys having a solid RP core behind the concept (I typically start out with a certain story/aesthetic for a character, and then try and realize a build which matches that initial RP core concept to the best of my ability). In that regard, I've already had plenty of success, even without looking to copy cheeky top-tier builds. Still, there's room for some sideways expansion for alternatives that do not rely as heavily on UMD.

Anyways, more high-end items do not make the 'rich richer', unless you're just talking about Appraise re-sellers (which from my experience have had solid merchant roleplay once they decided to pursue that route, so the existence of that niche only adds to the cross-character interplay on the server rather than detract from it). More equipment slot options means that there are more reasons for people with stockpiles of gold to get rid of said stockpiles. If what chad878262 said in regards to wand-use is true, then going for a +4 EB item rather than re-applying wands may actually be a net loss in wealth anyhoo.

Moreover, why the need to prevent soloing in the first place? Any-and-all content is already made much easier if you have at least one other player with you. Likewise, the [deafeningly loud as of late] server balance of Dispels benefits having a close-to-full CL buffer in your party rather than relying on UMD consumables. Aside from +4 EB bonuses to Ability scores, all full-spellcasting classes have enough class-specific buffs to make their presence palpable, and maybe it would even free up some spell slots for a mage who wants to have a couple more offensive/utility spells in their lineup rather than just buff-and-snoozing.

This.

[ARHicks00]

Perhaps, but very little of it is 'required'. If you have a Fighter/Barbarian type of build with Steadfast the pulse attack will never be a concern. If you are a caster you can likely make yourself immune.

If by pulse, you mean aura, no matter how high your will save, there is an off chance you will be affected by said aura. Yes, a spellcaster can become immune, but no build is truly immune to any aura attack without a feat or spell that combats against said aura.

I usually play a sneak, so he dodges or he gets fugued. He doesn't have cloud spells and the stacking debuff is a mode (so once you turn it on, it fires automatically). So for my rogue it's attack, RUN!!! HiPS, go out of sight and rebuff, attack, RUN!!! HiPS rinse repeat until he stops casting spells and starts auto-attacking at which point it's just HiPS, Attack.

One on one that works, but against a boss with henchmen that are also powerful, it is not as effective.

For a fighter type it is pretty much a boss you can auto-attack other than POSSIBLY using a heal pot or 3 and maybe a wand if the situation calls for it.

Fighter types have two tactics: Auto-attack and Crowd Control

You auto attack hoping a critical hit will help end the fight early and before you do a crowd control ability, you have to cross your fingers and hold tightly to your rabbit's foot in hopes that your enemy will fail his rolls. There is no real strategy.

Buffing is done before the fight begins and range attacks are mainly used if you can't fight in close range if your AC or saves aren't high enough. (Which happens in most cases) Healing during a battle is a sign you are waaaay over your head in this battle. Healing is done after battle unless you have a pocket healer such as a cleric.

Also as a fighter type, you have to pray the DMs/staff didn't deviant too much from the source material from the player handbook. (Which happens all to often) A fighter type that doesn't cross class will get 50 AC and 52 if you get 30 tumble. (Not counting combat expertise feats for 53 to 56 AC and 55 to 58 respectively) However, most will have below this because you also need to dedicate feats to CCs, damage, and high AB. Most DMs do not take this inconsideration or don't care, which is why a lot of Fighter types fall to the waste side and servers become spellcaster dominate.

For a Caster well, I'm pretty sure if you get lucky you can one-shot FGK... If not, there are still cloud spells and standard wizard tactics.

Casters like cleric can tank/dps, heal, range, dps/nuke. Mages can nuke, range, or dps/tank. Casters also have spells for nearly every situation and buff to match most tanks. It's why I said, you don't need a non-magic classes as they don't contribute much as you're there to carry them, not the other way around.

Requiring different tactics for different build types makes things fun.

Tactics, yes. Having to select feats to increase my AC and saves to insane levels is not tactics and makes the game less fun. From what I hear, that's all the end game has to offer, which is why I don't care for the high end content. However, that's another topic all together.

[chad878262]

The pulse is not an aura, it's a one time ability so if you dodge it (or save once) you're good.

As to high end content, it's safer and more fun to gather a party. I once gathered 6 epic pcs and took on the white dragon... or was great fun.

D&D is designed for parties and all classes can contribute and have great fun in a party... wizards and clerics will appreciate fighters/ rogues that save them from resting every 20 minutes at a minimum.

[ARHicks00]

The pulse is not an aura, it's a one time ability so if you dodge it (or save once) you're good.

As to high end content, it's safer and more fun to gather a party. I once gathered 6 epic pcs and took on the white dragon... or was great fun.

D&D is designed for parties and all classes can contribute and have great fun in a party... wizards and clerics will appreciate fighters/ rogues that save them from resting every 20 minutes at a minimum.

1. Okay. Gotcha.

2. ....ok.

3. Correction. PnP was designed to cater to all classes and parties types. NWN servers is not a one size fits all, which is why a level Rogue can go into the level 1 area and get killed quick while a level 1 Fighter will fair better. Same applies to other classes until later levels. It also applies to items, which is what the topic is about.

[aaron22]

3. Correction. PnP was designed to cater to all classes and parties types. NWN servers is not a one size fits all, which is why a level Rogue can go into the level 1 area and get killed quick while a level 1 Fighter will fair better. Same applies to other classes until later levels. It also applies to items, which is what the topic is about.

You know what fairs even better....
a fighter.....
and......
a rogue

[ARHicks00]

3. Correction. PnP was designed to cater to all classes and parties types. NWN servers is not a one size fits all, which is why a level Rogue can go into the level 1 area and get killed quick while a level 1 Fighter will fair better. Same applies to other classes until later levels. It also applies to items, which is what the topic is about.

You know what fairs even better....
a fighter.....
and......
a rogue

Rogue/Fighter/Weapon Master/Divine Champion and yeah classes in combinations are good (My wizard/rogue example), but DnD originally wasn't designed to fend against or revolve around powergaming. The counter to that is homebrewing the rules as well as gerrymandering the CRs for monsters and as I noted before, it doesn't work. In the case of BG, doing both resulted in excluded every class except spellcasters. Each server got different results when doing the same.