To expose or not to expose?

[Kobamw]

Hello everyone!

Since it’s free RCR time I’m thinking – like almost everyone I guess – about changing some of the builds I play. In my case it’s 2 builds and in both cases I’m considering adding a rogue dip. Anticipating the question – yes, I play rogues a lot and like it They provide flexibility/versatility (and squishiness…) and you can always pretend you’re smart (even with low INT) because you have a lot of skill points. In this case it’s different, though, as both are melee builds and I consider rogue dip for Expose Weakness which I read on the Wiki is fixed now (currently both don’t have it).

First build is a Fighter 14/ Tempest 5/ Weapon Master 7/ Dervish 4 and I am thinking about swapping Dervish for Rogue. I would lose 1 BAB, Dervish Dance 2x day (+2 damage and +2 AB), 2 epic feats (Great Strength) and 1 AC. Instead I would get Expose Weakness. Comparing Dervish build to the rogue one:

-4 AB (-2 AB without dance)
-3 damage (-1 without dance)
-1 AC
- 16 HP
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+3 AB, cumulative every second round (if EW hits, from lowered AC of the enemy)
+4 damage, cumulative every second round (if EW hits, from Dex 17 and +3 item)
+1 AC from tumble if I plan the levelling right (in Dervish build I managed only 10 ranks of tumble, with rogue I can get 20)
+ a bit more skill points

So the builds seem comparable to me with the one based on rogue a bit more reliable. EW should hit quite reliably while Dervish Dance is only 2x per rest. Does anyone have any experience with these builds/can comment, etc.?

Second build is Favored Soul 26/Blackguard 4 where I’m thinking about adding another 3 levels of rogue. Here the main issue (as far as I can see) is lower CL (27) against dispells in exchange for EW. Again, does anyone have any experience with playing this low CL on a gish in the epics?

I would greatly appreciate any advice on both rebuilds.

[chad878262]

Hi Koba, hope all is well.

While Expose Weakness is great for a melee non-sneak attack build the real 'win' for switching Dervish for Rogue 4 is Evasion and Uncanny Dodge. Since you have 17 DEX and are thus aiming for Mithral Breastplate, evasion works for you so it's a solid defensive feat, especially if you grab some UMD and use scrolls/wands/items to pump your reflex saves.

As to Expose Weakness, remember that the stacking AC malus will also help you confirm crits, making the damage output greater from that standpoint, even if you lose a few points on 'normal' hits. In addition, the bleed damage is double DEX so you'll have +10 Damage per round per instance of stacking EW. So after 1 round the enemies AC is -3 and they take 10 damage each round. In round 3 you get a stacking AC malus up to -6 and they take 20 damage on turn. The first EW ends after round 4, but in round 5 it gets applied again.

Oddly, stealth/feinter builds are the ones that don't need Expose Weakness quite as much (though it is often still the best choice). Rogue 'dips' for more up front melee types benefit more from the AC malus since it applies to dodge AC which is set to zero on sneak attacks.

Rogue offers far more (especially if taken at first level) with regards to skill points and skill access, evasion and uncanny dodge. Expose Weakness is just some juicy gravy on the meal.

Edit: for your second build, EW and Evasion are far less important. While they can still be helpful, I don't believe they are worth the loss of CL. You have Energy Immunity spells to make evasion irrelevant and can pump your AB in to the 50's. Now, if you said you were thinking FvS26/R4 instead of BG4 I would say it's a toss up and really depends on play style. I just think you should pick one or the other, not both in the case of the FvS. Plus let's be honest, FvS 30 can solo pretty much everything, but the White Dragon so anything you add to it is just piling on the power levels. However, taking CL away is adding a vulnerability in order to gain benefits that you do not need and don't significantly improve your damage per round. Better to have caster level 30 and avoid a weakness.

[wurdpass]

Tangential question:

For a more traditional HIPS ptwf sneak attack dual wielder, is expose better or worse than 2d6 of epic sneaks?

[Theodore01]

EW is a wonderful feat for any melee build. Evasion is also very nice (when it's enabled).

For your first build. Fighter 14/ Tempest 5/ Weapon Master 7/ Whirling Dervish 4 is the way to go.
Dash, Evasion, Bonus Skillfocus Feat x3, Spring Attack, Sneak Attack +1d6, Critical Sense (+1 attack bonus) all for the cost of Hide 8, Move Silently 8, Tumble 8.

Regarding the Favored Soul 26/Blackguard 3/Rogue3 or Monk3 - its only 2CL and not much of a problem at all.
(Played a FS22,Tempest5,Ro3 and it was OK and fun with decent gear.)

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

Since the fixed Uncanny dodge is a complete joke now (blocks all the dodge AC loss from sneak attacks), EW is a must imho.

[Kobamw]

Thanks a lot for all the advice. I see there's no simple answer, as alwys in life

In terms of the 2-weapon fighter I'm leaning towards rogue in place of dervish, because

remember that the stacking AC malus will also help you confirm crits

and

In round 3 you get a stacking AC malus up to -6 and they take 20 damage

so

EW is a wonderful feat for any melee build. Evasion is also very nice (when it's enabled).

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For your first build. Fighter 14/ Tempest 5/ Weapon Master 7/ Whirling Dervish 4 is the way to go.

I agree that Whirling Dervish also has a lot synergies. I tried to make such a build once and I recall it wasn't very easy to squeeze it all. I had to make some compromises which made go for a regular Dervish But perhaps I'll take another look at this route.

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As for the Favored Soul

However, taking CL away is adding a vulnerability in order to gain benefits that you do not need and don't significantly improve your damage per round. Better to have caster level 30 and avoid a weakness.

Sounds like an advice of a sage, thanks! Sounds so obvious when you hear someone telling you that... Although rogue would add access to tumble (AC) and EW would pile up AB and damage against bosses - which still tempts me, especially that Theodore

Played a FS22,Tempest5,Ro3 and it was OK and fun

On the other hand these same bosses will throw around Mords and the thought of having 10/15% chance of loosing every buff makes my hands shake...

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Regarding the Favored Soul 26/Blackguard 3/Rogue3 or Monk3 - its only 2CL and not much of a problem at all.

I understand this is a version without Divine Shield?
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Now, if you said you were thinking FvS26/R4 instead of BG4 I would say it's a toss up and really depends on play style

What would be the angle of such build? I mean, except of being FS with EW, Evasion, tumble and extra skills and skill points?

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Oddly, stealth/feinter builds are the ones that don't need Expose Weakness quite as much

Feinter needs EW to hit the target at all - believe when an old Feinter says so

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For a more traditional HIPS ptwf sneak attack dual wielder, is expose better or worse than 2d6 of epic sneaks?

If you're a HIPS build then you likely land 3 SAs every time you attack from stealth. That means that 2d6 of SA damage translates into 6d6. Now EW would make these attacks more likely to hit but I doubt you miss any of them having so high DEX and weapon finesse.

The damage from EW is another matter. You likely have 10d6+ SA dice and hit well over 100 damage from stealth already (on average). Your choice is between adding average 18.5 damage everytime you attack from stealth and recurring damage from DEX which may pile up to ~30 per round. So it looks like it might be worthwhile.

[chad878262]

What would be the angle of such build? I mean, except of being FS with EW, Evasion, tumble and extra skills and skill points?

+3 AC from tumblr all the time vs +7 for 36 seconds from divine shield. Stacking damage on turn all the time vs edm. Basically divine shield and edm draw from the same limited use per test pool. With 14 dex, +4 bracers and mitral chain you have evasion all the time, expose weakness all the time, plenty of AC, and full UMD so you can cast from scrolls. Opens options like premonition, shades, SoV or whatever else you find/ purchase.

Essentially, FvS are already high maintenance casting round/ level buffs every 3-6 minutes. Activating divine shield and edm takes 1 round each, add a third round for divine favor. Rogue removes that necessity while giving plenty of always on power and defenses in return.

[chad878262]

Feinter needs EW to hit the target at all - believe when an old Feinter says so

If feint check works the opponent is denied their dex and dodge AC. Only time EW AC penalty helps a feinter is if they can't land feint. Unfortunately too common on the surface which makes feinters a less than ideal choice

[Kobamw]

Chad,

I agree that rogue goodies are a decent equivalent/replacement of the blackguard. I was more thinking if maybe I missed some play style available for favored soul other than buffing and getting head on at the enemy

If feint check works the opponent is denied their dex and dodge AC.

To my experience feint reaches its full potential if it comes with TWF. Fighting without shield you need ICE in the epics (and you're still on the low side of the acceptable AC range). As it takes mid-AB classes to develop feint and SA dice, with ICE on I found it quite hard to hit the enemies without EW... Although when I time EW right and feint comes in I can deal 150+ damage per round with my sub-optimal build

[chad878262]

I agree that rogue goodies are a decent equivalent/replacement of the blackguard. I was more thinking if maybe I missed some play style available for favored soul other than buffing and getting head on at the enemy

Sorry to disappoint my friend! Really it just saves you a couple of clickies for what amounts to always on benefits.

To my experience feint reaches its full potential if it comes with TWF. Fighting without shield you need ICE in the epics (and you're still on the low side of the acceptable AC range). As it takes mid-AB classes to develop feint and SA dice, with ICE on I found it quite hard to hit the enemies without EW... Although when I time EW right and feint comes in I can deal 150+ damage per round with my sub-optimal build

Epic shops mate... Now your feinter with Epic Dodge can hit low to mid 40's AC easy and likely near 50 with use per day shield items and IMA wand. Thus you do NOT need ICE to avoid damage which allows for better attack bonus.

As to DPR, you should be doing wayyyyyy more than that with a feinter. AC still isn't your strength so you want to kill stuff in one round. A HiPS'ter can hit ~250 DPR pretty easy, well over 300 optimized in the first flurry. A well built Feinter is likely at least double that (at the expense of defense/HiPS)

[Kobamw]

Epic shops mate...

I know, only playing a successful merchant drains all my gold... so it takes a lot of time for me to stack up all the goods.

A HiPS'ter can hit ~250 DPR pretty easy, well over 300 optimized in the first flurry. A well built Feinter is likely at least double that (at the expense of defense/HiPS)

OK, so my feinter is heavily sub-optimal build, then

[Kobamw]

A couple of things still nag my mind. Dropping Blackguard and EDM/DS frees a lot of feat slots but also the build loses tower shield and poison use. How about adding:
- Dragon Slayer 3 (tower shield, tumble)
- Darkfire Disciple 3/4 (posion use/darkfire +1)

Without Rogue levels it would be 28/29 CL without Practiced Spellcaster. Adding Rogue would give Evasion+EW, but require Practiced Spellcaster. Still, it looks like there's planty of feat slots left to use. Which brings another matter - what heats to take? Go simply IPA or is there anything more sophisticated available...? (yeah, I know - that ship has sailed when I chose FS... )

And last thing - the race. With FS/BG I played half-elf, but I could als go either human and full elf. Now with Rogue levels DEX matters so elf looks better; on the other hand human gives extra feat and skill points...

[Kobamw]

For your first build. Fighter 14/ Tempest 5/ Weapon Master 7/ Whirling Dervish 4 is the way to go.

So I took another look at this build and recalled what didn't work in it for me. For Whirling Dervish you need 8 ranks in Hide, Move Silently and Tumble. With Fighter as a base class it means you need 13 levels. Then you need 3 levels of Whirling Dervish to get Spring Attack required by both other PRCs - that makes you level 16. With 4 levels until 20 you can't squeeze in 2 PRCs without breaking the 3b20 rule. Also, if you want to use Whirlwind Attack of Tempest to save a feat and qualify for Weapon Master you need 5 levels of Tempest first. That makes you level 21 before you even start with WM... Or am I getting something wrong?

[chad878262]

A couple of things still nag my mind. Dropping Blackguard and EDM/DS frees a lot of feat slots but also the build loses tower shield and poison use. How about adding:
- Dragon Slayer 3 (tower shield, tumble)
- Darkfire Disciple 3/4 (posion use/darkfire +1)

Favored Soul 20/R3/DFD3 with PSC gets CL30 and can work quite well. I wouldn't say Poison use is a big loss anyway since some bosses are immune, but it's FUN to play with so I don't fault you for enjoying it (I use it to).

You could also go BG3/DS3 or R3/DS3 and hit CL30 with PSC, both of which are good options. BG3/DS3 increases AC (Tumble access), but I am confused as Blackguard does not grant Tower Shields so not sure how you ever 'lost' them. You never had them. However, taking DS does grant access so all around not a bad pick.

And last thing - the race. With FS/BG I played half-elf, but I could als go either human and full elf. Now with Rogue levels DEX matters so elf looks better; on the other hand human gives extra feat and skill points...

You're overthinking it a little. Regardless of Race you want either 12, 13, 14 or 15 DEX. If you are not going to get evasion you can go with 12 or 13, depending on if you are going to wear +4 DEX Bracers (~500K) or find/purchase a +3 DEX item so you can get to 16 DEX and wear Mithral Full Plate. If you are going for evasion you want 14 or 15 DEX to get to 18 with an item and wear Mithral Chainmail. Elf helps you get there by virtue of +2 DEX, but Half-Elf comes with some nice skill buffs and Human gets an extra Feat. Race should fit your RP, if all the races fit your RP then pick which one you find the best fit for your build.

So I took another look at this build and recalled what didn't work in it for me. For Whirling Dervish you need 8 ranks in Hide, Move Silently and Tumble. With Fighter as a base class it means you need 13 levels. Then you need 3 levels of Whirling Dervish to get Spring Attack required by both other PRCs - that makes you level 16. With 4 levels until 20 you can't squeeze in 2 PRCs without breaking the 3b20 rule. Also, if you want to use Whirlwind Attack of Tempest to save a feat and qualify for Weapon Master you need 5 levels of Tempest first. That makes you level 21 before you even start with WM... Or am I getting something wrong?

There are other base classes that qualify earlier, but lose feats. In the case of a Fighter build you get a ton of feats, just eat the 'loss' or inefficiency of taking Spring Attack and you can qualify for Tempest earlier, then still take WD at 13 or whatever. It's still giving you stuff beyond a free feat so there is benefit to it... Though for a Tempest that has to get 17 DEX at that point I question if it's worth the loss of two STR to instead go for Shadow Dancer and gain HiPS. Even with no further investment in stealth HiPS can still break spell lock, after all...