Taking Another Whack at Surface Evil RP. Who Wants In?

[thids]

Quite some time ago I presented evidence to utterly condemn Captain Norton of severe corruption and he's still lazing aroung the Fist Barracks as if nothing ever happened. And thats all ive ever been able to achieve in the NPC sphere. Nothing. And not for lack of trying. Its just ive given up on that now too. Sigh..

From what I remember, the evidence wasn't exactly "damning", but it did put pressure on Norton. Things were put in motion to have Norton forcibly retired, with a fat pension and a minor title with NPCed Myhun replacing him as the quest giver. I am not sure what happened with that though, probably fell between the cracks and needs to be bumped. I might not be remembering everything correctly, so don't take it as fact.

As for killing off NPCs like Mag or hell, even one of the Dukes, I'd say it's not impossible but highly improbable. And no DM wants to deal with what comes after, which is complaints way more often than not. The biggest problem is that the mass mentality today is usually instant gratification, in all games not just roleplay on BGTSCC. Which is perfectly normal, people want to kick back and relax, have some fun after a long day/week at work. Getting kicked into the mud by an army of devils, or an all powerful NPC, or a legion of flaming fist battlecasters is not fun for most people. If you want to get something out of it, I recommend thinking long loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong term while still being 100% prepared to be kicked into the mud regardless. If you show a hint of expecting success, most DMs will be reluctant to deal with it, as they do not want to be put in a position where they are accused of railroading and being unfair. And you can't really blame them, this environment is not their creation, it is the creation of the community as a whole, and the community as a whole needs to work towards changing that status quo.

[DM Golem]

The Norton replacement is a work in progress - it DID need bumped, but has been bumped within the last month and it will happen as far as I know!

[Shadow]

I for one refuse to believe that none of this is possible. I just do. Call it stupidity but I believe given the right circumstances and planning one could accomplish great things but we need to temper our ideals of our own power within our plans. There needs to be many many working pieces and not all of those pieces are going to pan in your plan. Do you give up or do you keep realizing that the iceberg is much larger than that and keep chipping away at it?

With that said I have attempted 2 evil PCs truly I gave up on one not because of no help but because I had no true plan for him. In the process of putting my next thoughts to the realm and so far I feel it is going okay. I do wish I could do more outright evil stuff more often but I try to see the silver lining in the fact that not actually being outright evil more often gives me the element of surprise when the time is right.......When that time is? No clue. Just taking it one day at a time with a overall plan in mind myself......

[calvinus]

For the Glory of Amn, I want to point out that most evil faiths are legal to practice in Amn to the best of my OOC knowledge (DMs could confirm) and that Amn very much has a lot of room open for legal evil RP that really has not been explored IC for years outside of some non-Amn themed Aurilite RP in the Cloud Peaks — just saying that Auril caveat as that was more religious themed evil RP out of civilization was my impression. And omg crazy nostalgia for my favorite non-good Amn based merc guild ever, The Silver Shield, and for stuff Narasida Zakine would RP on from a non-good perspective in Amn and there is great RP stuff the Dead Crows and Hellstorm did as well — but this was over three years ago now! At least in canon FR by Lands of Intrigue as well, the Council of Six average alignment leans heavily evil — maybe not as much as the Red Wizards of Thay or the Zhentarim leadership, but certainly more that direction than any other major political faction besides Z/RWT in our game area setting. I have a LG Amn based toon at present, but I am extremely eager to explore non-good and especially evil RP lines in Amn if anyone is interested and would absolutely roll a new toon as such. Please just ping me in a PM if interested.

[enginseer-42]

For the Glory of Amn, I want to point out that most evil faiths are legal to practice in Amn to the best of my OOC knowledge (DMs could confirm) and that Amn very much has a lot of room open for legal evil RP that really has not been explored IC for years outside of some non-Amn themed Aurilite RP in the Cloud Peaks — just saying that Auril caveat as that was more religious themed evil RP out of civilization was my impression. And omg crazy nostalgia for my favorite non-good Amn based merc guild ever, The Silver Shield, and for stuff Narasida Zakine would RP on from a non-good perspective in Amn and there is great RP stuff the Dead Crows and Hellstorm did as well — but this was over three years ago now! At least in canon FR by Lands of Intrigue as well, the Council of Six average alignment leans heavily evil — maybe not as much as the Red Wizards of Thay or the Zhentarim leadership, but certainly more that direction than any other major political faction besides Z/RWT in our game area setting. I have a LG Amn based toon at present, but I am extremely eager to explore non-good and especially evil RP lines in Amn if anyone is interested and would absolutely roll a new toon as such. Please just ping me in a PM if interested.

Except Amn has more or less the same excessively restrictive lawset that Baldurs Gate does. Hell, just casting summon monster in self defense nets you either banishment or a death sentence, even if you have a license.

[calvinus]

For the Glory of Amn, I want to point out that most evil faiths are legal to practice in Amn to the best of my OOC knowledge (DMs could confirm) and that Amn very much has a lot of room open for legal evil RP that really has not been explored IC for years outside of some non-Amn themed Aurilite RP in the Cloud Peaks — just saying that Auril caveat as that was more religious themed evil RP out of civilization was my impression. And omg crazy nostalgia for my favorite non-good Amn based merc guild ever, The Silver Shield, and for stuff Narasida Zakine would RP on from a non-good perspective in Amn and there is great RP stuff the Dead Crows and Hellstorm did as well — but this was over three years ago now! At least in canon FR by Lands of Intrigue as well, the Council of Six average alignment leans heavily evil — maybe not as much as the Red Wizards of Thay or the Zhentarim leadership, but certainly more that direction than any other major political faction besides Z/RWT in our game area setting. I have a LG Amn based toon at present, but I am extremely eager to explore non-good and especially evil RP lines in Amn if anyone is interested and would absolutely roll a new toon as such. Please just ping me in a PM if interested.

Except Amn has more or less the same excessively restrictive lawset that Baldurs Gate does. Hell, just casting summon monster in self defense nets you either banishment or a death sentence, even if you have a license.

"Excessively restrictive lawset" may be true from a neutral evil or chaotic evil "what should be legally possible" perspective in some cases and from the perspective of evil magic usage, but there is wide legal latitude for lawful evil RP in the political, business, and religious (try proselytizing Bane or Bhaal in Baldur's Gate and then in Nashkel and I bet OOC you'll get different IC legal treatment, but if ya don't believe me, I encourage you to have a toon do as such and try it) realm that has barely been taken advantage of to the best of my OOC knowledge since at least two years ago OOC and even from chaotic evil and neutral evil "what should be legally possible" perspectives as well as such if a PC is willing to be creative with bribing, blackmailing, or otherwise pressuring Amnian NPCs to not care or even be enthused about something "evil".

[Tekill]

Fellow evil players, our prayers have been answered!

BEHOLD!!!!

https://www.dmsguild.com/product/254797 ... Hobo-Class

But seriously, if anyone is interesting in forming a 'crew' send me a pm. I am on PST zone.

[electric mayhem]

We've all played with them before - the people who want to donothing but kill things and take their stuff, and then blow it all on hookers and booze. They're the worst, right?

we should make a Faction for it. Seeing as every man and his dog wants one these days.

[enginseer-42]

For the Glory of Amn, I want to point out that most evil faiths are legal to practice in Amn to the best of my OOC knowledge (DMs could confirm) and that Amn very much has a lot of room open for legal evil RP that really has not been explored IC for years outside of some non-Amn themed Aurilite RP in the Cloud Peaks — just saying that Auril caveat as that was more religious themed evil RP out of civilization was my impression. And omg crazy nostalgia for my favorite non-good Amn based merc guild ever, The Silver Shield, and for stuff Narasida Zakine would RP on from a non-good perspective in Amn and there is great RP stuff the Dead Crows and Hellstorm did as well — but this was over three years ago now! At least in canon FR by Lands of Intrigue as well, the Council of Six average alignment leans heavily evil — maybe not as much as the Red Wizards of Thay or the Zhentarim leadership, but certainly more that direction than any other major political faction besides Z/RWT in our game area setting. I have a LG Amn based toon at present, but I am extremely eager to explore non-good and especially evil RP lines in Amn if anyone is interested and would absolutely roll a new toon as such. Please just ping me in a PM if interested.

Amn makes clear cut self defense illegal... if it uses magic. Sure you can bribe your way to legitimacy, but that doesn't mean that you're not fighting an uphill battle. Meanwhile instead you could go north to Darkhold or Soubar or Roaringshore.
Except Amn has more or less the same excessively restrictive lawset that Baldurs Gate does. Hell, just casting summon monster in self defense nets you either banishment or a death sentence, even if you have a license.

"Excessively restrictive lawset" may be true from a neutral evil or chaotic evil "what should be legally possible" perspective in some cases and from the perspective of evil magic usage, but there is wide legal latitude for lawful evil RP in the political, business, and religious (try proselytizing Bane or Bhaal in Baldur's Gate and then in Nashkel and I bet OOC you'll get different IC legal treatment, but if ya don't believe me, I encourage you to have a toon do as such and try it) realm that has barely been taken advantage of to the best of my OOC knowledge since at least two years ago OOC and even from chaotic evil and neutral evil "what should be legally possible" perspectives as well as such if a PC is willing to be creative with bribing, blackmailing, or otherwise pressuring Amnian NPCs to not care or even be enthused about something "evil".

[Deathgrowl]

Several times over the years, I have tried to get involved with evil-side RP, surface and underdark, but never really been able to. There are several reasons for this:

Sometimes - in fact quite often - the focus tends to be on PvP. People deliberately RP in a manner that provokes PvP. Some even have characters that are random killers, but instead of killing mobs randomly, they specifically target player characters (although mostly at random). I find this particular approach to be distasteful. Especially when it also comes with a very competitive mentality where they build their characters to win PvP, and so often to the detriment of RP. Or at least to the detriment of their character sheets, so the characters aren't really RPed appropriately (8 wis, 8 cha wizards that are RPed as quite eloquent and insightful - perhaps even charming, just as an example). I'm not interested in any of this for my evil characters. To be absolutely clear, though: I don't mind PvP as an occasional tool. I do mind PvP as a goal.

Some other times, there are quite exclusive cliques going on. We are tribal beings, ultimately, so cliques are inevitable on all sides of this, but from my own experience, the cliques are more difficult to penetrate on the evil side. Note, though, that I haven't said "OOC cliques" yet. Because sometimes they're just very exclusive IC cliques, while the players themselves can be perfectly fine and inclusive. And this is perhaps just the nature of evil organisations? I don't know if there's any way around that.

Speaking from my own preference, I always enjoyed the unapologetic evil the most. Those who understand that morals are objective in the forgotten realms universe and proudly stand as evil. In fact, I find the "hidden" evils a bit nauceating, because they are so often really obvious. And even worse are the moral subjectivists in this setting. I hate the "use undeads to save orphanage" hypothetical scenario for instance. It's just nonsense.

My favourite evil gods tend to be Yurtrus and Urdlen. If you look at Bane and such gods, they argue for "a better world", in their own way. They think their approach is, fundamentally, for the better. Whereas Yurtrus and Urdlen just wants to kill and destroy all things: The best world is one that ceases to exist.

There is something fascinating and really sinister about embodiments of emptiness. Void, some settings call it. FR doesn't really have that.

Either way, my preferences for evil here makes it perhaps seem like the characters I would enjoy would be murder hobos. That's not really the case. I get to do that sort of stuff as a DM, and that is fun enough. You can't really do it as a player, however, because you become a cartoon villain by returning over and over once the good-guys have had enough of you and gang up on you. The PC murder hobo becomes a parody of itself.

And now I lost my train of thought!

But, I am sort of interested in seeing where this is going. If you can get some evil oriented RP going that doesn't have PvP as a goal and is relatively easy to get into, I might very well be interested in joining in on that.

[Steve]

If you can get some evil oriented RP going that doesn't have PvP as a goal and is relatively easy to get into, I might very well be interested in joining in on that.

PvP is inevitable—and as you say DG, not something you're avoiding but shy away from PvP as #1 goal—because just as many Good Toons want to do everything possible to PWN Evil Toons, as do Evil Toons upon Good.

IMHO, the real issue with playing Evil vs. Good on BGTSCC is that there is no Death beyond Player-agreed Death. You can't lose PvP 5 times and be "forced" to erase the Character, for instance.

What this paradigm creates is a cartoon world, even if you desire and apply the most highest form of RP Upon High.

One can create, at least I believe, a situation where both Players of Good and Evil AGREE OOC that their own Toons hold Life in Balance between each other, and if they encounter each other battle, and one dies, there are X lives at stake and that's it.

Because the thing is: to play Evil, you have low-to-no regard for Life. Thus, taking Lives REALLY MEANS taking Lives. And another Player literally cannot force another Player to have their Toon die. But why does it matter if a Character must die? Well, simply take a look at the violent world that Forgotten Realms is predicated on! KILL KILL KILL! The majority of Feats are related to combat and damage. And on top of that, the majority of the Stories that take place on BGTSCC resolve themselves via violence.

So the cartoon of Wiley E. Coyote and Roadrunner continues on and on and on.

What I have argued for more times than I can count, is for Players to build and understanding between each other, AND with DM support, to build an Epic Story around their PCs that codifies a realistic, agreed upon Death. If some would do this, then the actions of such Characters, both the good actions and the evil actions, would ACTUALLY COUNT.

Anyway...there has been this thought through before:

Thoughts and Tips on Playing Evil and Organizing Evil RP

Honestly, the most important thing for any group effort, is that the Players online time / game times are similar, and often. You need a consistent window of RP, where Players stick to 1 PC and make that RP together, often, and with dedication. Easy to state, not so easy to manifest!

[calvinus]

Several times over the years, I have tried to get involved with evil-side RP, surface and underdark, but never really been able to. There are several reasons for this:

Sometimes - in fact quite often - the focus tends to be on PvP. People deliberately RP in a manner that provokes PvP. Some even have characters that are random killers, but instead of killing mobs randomly, they specifically target player characters (although mostly at random). I find this particular approach to be distasteful. Especially when it also comes with a very competitive mentality where they build their characters to win PvP, and so often to the detriment of RP. Or at least to the detriment of their character sheets, so the characters aren't really RPed appropriately (8 wis, 8 cha wizards that are RPed as quite eloquent and insightful - perhaps even charming, just as an example). I'm not interested in any of this for my evil characters. To be absolutely clear, though: I don't mind PvP as an occasional tool. I do mind PvP as a goal.

Some other times, there are quite exclusive cliques going on. We are tribal beings, ultimately, so cliques are inevitable on all sides of this, but from my own experience, the cliques are more difficult to penetrate on the evil side. Note, though, that I haven't said "OOC cliques" yet. Because sometimes they're just very exclusive IC cliques, while the players themselves can be perfectly fine and inclusive. And this is perhaps just the nature of evil organisations? I don't know if there's any way around that.

Speaking from my own preference, I always enjoyed the unapologetic evil the most. Those who understand that morals are objective in the forgotten realms universe and proudly stand as evil. In fact, I find the "hidden" evils a bit nauceating, because they are so often really obvious. And even worse are the moral subjectivists in this setting. I hate the "use undeads to save orphanage" hypothetical scenario for instance. It's just nonsense.

My favourite evil gods tend to be Yurtrus and Urdlen. If you look at Bane and such gods, they argue for "a better world", in their own way. They think their approach is, fundamentally, for the better. Whereas Yurtrus and Urdlen just wants to kill and destroy all things: The best world is one that ceases to exist.

There is something fascinating and really sinister about embodiments of emptiness. Void, some settings call it. FR doesn't really have that.

Either way, my preferences for evil here makes it perhaps seem like the characters I would enjoy would be murder hobos. That's not really the case. I get to do that sort of stuff as a DM, and that is fun enough. You can't really do it as a player, however, because you become a cartoon villain by returning over and over once the good-guys have had enough of you and gang up on you. The PC murder hobo becomes a parody of itself.

And now I lost my train of thought!

But, I am sort of interested in seeing where this is going. If you can get some evil oriented RP going that doesn't have PvP as a goal and is relatively easy to get into, I might very well be interested in joining in on that.

I have had an Urdlen gnome toon for a while now that is very fun to play and is openly evil and whose main goal in life is to horde and kill stuff (cats, people, bears, anything of opportunity) to put in an offering hole in the ground for Urdlen. It’s very different and liberating RP than the evil and good RP I have otherwise done kind of because of what you are getting at here. But no, it wouldn’t be for everyone!

[Tekill]

Huh.
So I guess based on what Deathgrowl's and calvinus's'ses posts allude to, (to me anyways) is that we have two main subcategories of evil RP.
You have the opportunists that display deviant behavior to try to level or tip a playing field to their advantage. Intrigue, manipulation, infiltration.
Then you have the wicked, that display deviant behavior as a way to validate themselves, or get off on said behavior. Sadism, fanaticism, murder hobos.

The Opportunist generally has the best long term success on this server but it runs the risk of homogenization, or becoming a farce. The Wicked has a better chance of being publicly executed. I think it is possible to combine the two as well. Mix for best RP results imo.

I think if we focus on our own evil intent and evil actions and less on the fact that we are all closet immortals, that would work best. Sure our evil acts will often end in PVP. But that PVP is just one small part of what we should be focusing on. Let's spend our time thinking up new and interesting evil schemes and less about successfully killing our foes, is what I am saying. If pvp is a fun side project or an afterthought of everything else, than winning/losing pvp becomes less important and therefore more fun. This game is a simulation of life and like real life, being murdered most often feels very unfair. I usually feel upset when I think someone is trying to murder me. It is only natural.

What I would like to very carefully do with the Murder Hobo Gang, is not be afraid of pvp but treat it as a last priority or maybe a side affect of the game. Kill or be killed...come back to life, forget that you were just murdered or murdered someone, then get back to the evil plotting which is the actual focus of this crew. Especially in the beginning- the focus will first be on building and connecting. Then once established and connected, we start plotting. If the plotting is pvp, then we do it as Gentlemen/woman.

One player PM'd me and told me that you do not have to mechanically figure a way to create a 'Network' of evil. There are a lot of established evil organizations that are networking quite well already. So that gave me the idea for a plan.

As a sort of experiment I am going to see if its possible to create a sort of human (subhuman) network of evil enterprises.

I'm going to create a 'crew', not really a guild or a faction but a small gang of Wicked Opportunists. We will act as intelligence, facilitators and cleaners. It shout not be a faction itself because a lot of the time we would have to be reaching out to other deviants (guilds/factions/religions). That would be the networking part. By not being an official guild but a small party, it would make us more desirable or approachable.

So far there are 3 (and a half) of us interested already.
I am on Pacific Time zone, but I am hoping that the nature of this guild could mean we can work in separate time zones. As long as we can meet once in awhile for meetings/events. It would be nice to be able to RP/adventure on a regular basis but not always possible/practical.

I originally created this thread because I suspected there was a bunch of evil players out there, like myself, facing the same challenge of how to accomplish some decent evil RP on this server. So I assume you are out there.
So if anyone is interested, Send a PM - no class/level/race/religion restrictions although we are going to be focusing on the Opportunist side of evil RP to start off. I need at least 3 more players before I can take this seriously.

[Necromantis]

Oh, this again. I've had my most active people in the Zhentarim leave due to a lack of guild involvement. So yeah, I'll get 'excited' when the Zhentarim gets thrown a bone again, once in a blue moon. Until then... -shrug, and reads the BG newspaper-

[aaron22]

Guys.. Im not exclusive. Come find us in game. work something out that can work for our RP. I have no reserve on including non-orcs in events and RP. Even if it is just temporary to breath some life in your own faction.

Some stuff we do is Orc only, but some stuff is not.

hint: We wont be hanging out at the FAI or E.Farmalnds campfires.