Caster Bard - Stormsinger

[MaskedOne1]

Heya,

In a previous thread i asked for the Lyric Thaumaturge (LT) PrC, to be able to create a good caster bard. The thread spawned a really good and interesting discussion, but failed to bring change, except perhaps(?) for a work in progress, BG scripters/Staff possibly looking into creating a LT version for BG.

I have still attempted to create a caster bard, going for Stormsinger and i think i have succeeded - sort of

I went for 30 CHA (With Buffs), to make sure any spells and class abilities would be potent, when used.

The abilities of Gust of Wind, Call Lightning and Winters Ballad (Greater Call Lightning) function just like the spells, which means it is difficult to get DC higher than 28, reflex save, good against PvE, but not great. Also, each costs bard song per day and is hardly worth it.

The abilities of:
- Thunderstrike: At 3rd level, a stormsinger with 11 or more ranks in Perform can use bardic music to unleash a deadly thunderbolt. The bolt can be targeted at any one creature within 60 feet, and the stormsinger must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit the target. If she hits, the stormsinger then makes a Perform check; the result indicates how much electricity damage the thunderbolt deals (double on a critical hit). A Reflex save (DC10 + stormsinger's class level + Cha modifier) halves the damage. If the creature fails its Reflex save, it must make a Fortitude save (same DC) or be deafened for a number of rounds equal to the damage dealt.

- Great Thunderstrike: At 9th level, a stormsinger with 17 or more ranks in Perform can use bardic music to unleash a terrible stroke of lightning, bollowed by a deafening clap of thunder. The great thunderstrike affects a line 60 feet long from the stormsinger. The stormsinger makes a Perform check; the results indicate how much electricity damage the great thunderstrike deals (double on a critical). A Reflex save (DC13 + stormsinger's class level + Cha modifier) halves the damage. If the creature fails its Reflex save, it must make a Fortitude save (same DC) or take an additional d6(storm singer levels) points of sonic damage and be permanently deafened.

Both of these abilities are actually very cool.

I would like to ask, how staff and other players would feel about making the Thunderstrike ability (NOT Great Thunderstrike) an ability that can be used an unlimited amount of times per day, much like the warlocks eldritch blast.

I realize that this would be powerful, but only if you build your character as a caster, with high CHA, you do electrical damage, which is easy to protect yourself against, and only if you go for really high perform skill would it be effective.

I rarely if ever use this ability by now, since epic levels provide me with Song of Requim. If I however could use it unlimited (no song cost) i would rely on this ability, at a distance, a lot more than melee combat, which im not really that good at. It would give my character, and other characters build be a caster, a primary caster-like weapon that is actually effective at higher levels, possibly even at epic levels.

I think it would be a cool addition, let me know what you Guys think.

Cheers

[Hammer_Song]

Just take a reserve feat and you can 'pew-pew' away.

Making it unlimited would be crazy in the hands of high perform builds. They'd be hitting in the hundred's all the time and critting for over 200 damage. Bards are already very strong, even chr-based ones. This would be an unnecessary power up.

[ARHicks00]

Just take a reserve feat and you can 'pew-pew' away.

Making it unlimited would be crazy in the hands of high perform builds. They'd be hitting in the hundred's all the time and critting for over 200 damage. Bards are already very strong, even chr-based ones. This would be an unnecessary power up.

Bards are good against anyone who does low damage or doesn't posses energy immunity. For example, you can beat out their song/hymn of requiem if you do over 100 damage per round, which a Weapon Master/Frenzy Berserk can do.

Same applies to the other Bard PrCs including this one as you can stop them with energy immunity evasion, wear an electric/sonic reducing items.

[chad878262]

Bards are good against anyone who does low damage or doesn't posses energy immunity. For example, you can beat out their song/hymn of requiem if you do over 100 damage per round, which a Weapon Master/Frenzy Berserk can do.

Same applies to the other Bard PrCs including this one as you can stop them with energy immunity evasion, wear an electric/sonic reducing items.

This is mostly only a concern if someone is concerned with PvP. Even then, Bards have a litany of ways to handle PvP, including against Weapon Masters/Frenzy Berserkers.

FB/WM builds in general do quite poorly in PvP unless they are facing an unprepared adversary. They have low will saves, low AC and their HP pool isn't that great. They are quite similar to HiPster sneak attack builds, except without HiPS in most cases.

A Bard can have quite a bit of defense against such builds because even if they grab energy immunity (sonic) Hymn still heals the bard for a full minute. Meanwhile the bard also has Curse song, Song/Chorus of Heroism, mirror images and displacement alongside (most likely) AC in the low 50's at minimum. On top of this, depending on build the bard may have Expose Weakness, EDM, high STR or in the case of Charisma Bards loads of spells per day and ability to disable the Weapon Master through weak will saves. Simply casting Greater Dispel will take care of the WM immunities, making Hymn effective and even if they somehow have stacked 100% immunity from items, the bard / storm singer can still use SoV, grease, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, War Cry, Blindness, Cloud of Bewilderment, Confusion, Dirge, (mass) hold person, Song of Discord, Slow, etc.

Point being the CHA/Caster Bard will beat a WM/FB almost every time. Such builds rely on UMD in PvE, but with dispel fix they are quite at a loss in PvP since they have very little in the way of defense and are easily stripped bare by a CL30 caster. Meanwhile with the Expose Weakness fix of the auto-hit, they will have difficulty cutting through the high AC, displaced mirror images before the bard has dispelled them and started loading up on disables/damage.

With that out of the way, from a PvE perspective a Bard/Stormsinger works quite well. You just need to realize that a caster bard is more of a singer than a caster. You're still a bard, so should be using songs, inspirations, and weapons for your character. You can of course grab reserve spells, but the damage is so low as to be worthless outside of an RP choice. Even the 30 second cooldown runes will do a max of 12d4 damage since your highest spell level is 6. That's 30 damage in a small AoE once per 30 seconds... You will do more damage swinging a sword (even with ~14 STR + Bull's STR) or maybe even shooting a bow.

Charisma Bards are quite powerful, especially from a PvP perspective. However, in PvE, while still powerful, they are quite similar to any other caster, their power diminishes as they use it up. You have to be careful and make sure you are using means of defeating enemies that conserves your resources (clouds, weapon attacks, dominated enemies, etc.)

B20/SS10 is good, but just remember Storm Singer songs, especially SoV burn through your songs quick. B26/BG4 is a solid CHA bard for divine shield, Hymn of Requiem and even divine might if you have to enter melee.

[ARHicks00]

Bards are good against anyone who does low damage or doesn't posses energy immunity. For example, you can beat out their song/hymn of requiem if you do over 100 damage per round, which a Weapon Master/Frenzy Berserk can do.

Same applies to the other Bard PrCs including this one as you can stop them with energy immunity evasion, wear an electric/sonic reducing items.

This is mostly only a concern if someone is concerned with PvP. Even then, Bards have a litany of ways to handle PvP, including against Weapon Masters/Frenzy Berserkers.

FB/WM builds in general do quite poorly in PvP unless they are facing an unprepared adversary. They have low will saves, low AC and their HP pool isn't that great. They are quite similar to HiPster sneak attack builds, except without HiPS in most cases.

A Bard can have quite a bit of defense against such builds because even if they grab energy immunity (sonic) Hymn still heals the bard for a full minute. Meanwhile the bard also has Curse song, Song/Chorus of Heroism, mirror images and displacement alongside (most likely) AC in the low 50's at minimum. On top of this, depending on build the bard may have Expose Weakness, EDM, high STR or in the case of Charisma Bards loads of spells per day and ability to disable the Weapon Master through weak will saves. Simply casting Greater Dispel will take care of the WM immunities, making Hymn effective and even if they somehow have stacked 100% immunity from items, the bard / storm singer can still use SoV, grease, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, War Cry, Blindness, Cloud of Bewilderment, Confusion, Dirge, (mass) hold person, Song of Discord, Slow, etc.

Point being the CHA/Caster Bard will beat a WM/FB almost every time. Such builds rely on UMD in PvE, but with dispel fix they are quite at a loss in PvP since they have very little in the way of defense and are easily stripped bare by a CL30 caster. Meanwhile with the Expose Weakness fix of the auto-hit, they will have difficulty cutting through the high AC, displaced mirror images before the bard has dispelled them and started loading up on disables/damage.

With that out of the way, from a PvE perspective a Bard/Stormsinger works quite well. You just need to realize that a caster bard is more of a singer than a caster. You're still a bard, so should be using songs, inspirations, and weapons for your character. You can of course grab reserve spells, but the damage is so low as to be worthless outside of an RP choice. Even the 30 second cooldown runes will do a max of 12d4 damage since your highest spell level is 6. That's 30 damage in a small AoE once per 30 seconds... You will do more damage swinging a sword (even with ~14 STR + Bull's STR) or maybe even shooting a bow.

Charisma Bards are quite powerful, especially from a PvP perspective. However, in PvE, while still powerful, they are quite similar to any other caster, their power diminishes as they use it up. You have to be careful and make sure you are using means of defeating enemies that conserves your resources (clouds, weapon attacks, dominated enemies, etc.)

B20/SS10 is good, but just remember Storm Singer songs, especially SoV burn through your songs quick. B26/BG4 is a solid CHA bard for divine shield, Hymn of Requiem and even divine might if you have to enter melee.

Mirror image AC is based on Dexterity so it does not make one invincible. My pure fighter has has taken NPC mirror images thanks to high AB or blindfight. Even with curse song you lower the AB by -2. Any curse can be removed with a lesser restoration. So Sonic immune Weapon Beserker with a two can do up 100 or more damage per. Curse song and song of Requiem requires two rounds so you may only complete one round worth of feats. Displacement causes a person to miss 50% of time but blindfight reduces that.

Bard fights, like any other spellcaster class, comes down to being prepared. Even when prepared, they need two turns to do what they got to do.

[Diamore]

I have played three versions of Stormsinger so far and have never thought "I need more uses of Thunderstrike". It is a suitably powerful ability that encourages and rewards investment in Perform above and beyond what Bards would normally care for.

The only issue with it is that it draws from the same pool of resources (Bard songs) as your much more powerful and long lasting Storm of Vengeance. Three uses of Thunderstrike would need to be lucky to equal one use of SoV.

Limitless uses of it would simply be too powerful given what can be achieved with a Stormsinger (although I would welcome such a change on mine...). Switching it to a specific number of uses per day (3-5) independent of bardic songs would probably remedy it though.

Also, Storm Bolt is the answer to your casting issues in regards to reserve feats.

Mirror image AC is ... ... Bard fights, like any other spellcaster class, comes down to being prepared. Even when prepared, they need two turns to do what they got to do.

Let me try that line of argument.

"You would show up as a Fighter with immunity to sonic because you knew you were going to fight a bard today? Don't be ridiculous. If you show up unprepared, they cast invisibility and buff. You do the same, they dispel you and begin the fight after starting the song."

Playing the "but you can counter it with X" card in these discussion gets you nowhere. Chad's breakdown of bard power levels and capabilities is entirely accurate.

[ARHicks00]

I have played three versions of Stormsinger so far and have never thought "I need more uses of Thunderstrike". It is a suitably powerful ability that encourages and rewards investment in Perform above and beyond what Bards would normally care for.

The only issue with it is that it draws from the same pool of resources (Bard songs) as your much more powerful and long lasting Storm of Vengeance. Three uses of Thunderstrike would need to be lucky to equal one use of SoV.

Limitless uses of it would simply be too powerful given what can be achieved with a Stormsinger (although I would welcome such a change on mine...). Switching it to a specific number of uses per day (3-5) independent of bardic songs would probably remedy it though.

Also, Storm Bolt is the answer to your casting issues in regards to reserve feats.

Mirror image AC is ... ... Bard fights, like any other spellcaster class, comes down to being prepared. Even when prepared, they need two turns to do what they got to do.

Let me try that line of argument.

"You would show up as a Fighter with immunity to sonic because you knew you were going to fight a bard today? Don't be ridiculous. If you show up unprepared, they cast invisibility and buff. You do the same, they dispel you and begin the fight after starting the song."

Playing the "but you can counter it with X" card in these discussion gets you nowhere. Chad's breakdown of bard power levels and capabilities is entirely accurate.

Let me say I am theory crafting. (Along with chad's account) However, in regards to Song/Hymn of Requiem, it can be beat out. You will do 100 damage to a single target and heal for 100 per round. Weapon Masters can do 60 to 80 damage with critcals while adding FB can knock it up to 100 to 160 depending on the equipment. That means he can end the fight in two hits. Mirror image will be removed the same round and displacement will only reduce the number hits that land by 2 if the fighter-type built has blind fight. Fighter type builds have 390 to 420 while most bards have 240 and below. It takes 4 to 5 rounds to kill that build and it takes 1 round to kill you. To put it simple, whether fighter-type has sonic immunity or not, if his damage output is greater than 59 per hit, he will end the fight in one round if he critical hits at least 3 times. And let's hope he does not disarm you to boot.

As I said unless you come prepared, that bard will be dead before the second round. That is why I never understood why people call them overpowered. FYI, I believe the bard would win under these circumstances most of the time...like 6 out of 10.

[chad878262]

Bard has a song that effectively gives them sanctuary effect against a will save, thus fighter won't have any way to attack them while they buff to the heaven's, then cast greater dispel and start wailing on the fighter. Fighter can run away while the buffing is occurring, but that's about it. By the time buffing is done the bard has ~55-60 AC, 20/- DR, Mirrors, Displacement, all kinds of AB/Damage buffs and when ready can fire off greater dispel/hymn/curse song/mass hold person/whatever...

So no, the fighter will not hit the Bard fast or often, by the time the Bard decides to fight, the battle is already over since the F/WM/FB has no way of landing a hit while the Bard can fully disable them at will.

Much like many such builds, they may look cool because their big numbers, but they are ridiculously easy to counter.

[ARHicks00]

Bard has a song that effectively gives them sanctuary effect against a will save, thus fighter won't have any way to attack them while they buff to the heaven's, then cast greater dispel and start wailing on the fighter.

Those songs are Haven and Fascinate. The highest DC would be 30 to 35. My fighter builds can get get 22 with items (25 against spells) and my Hero build gets 26 with items. (31 against spells)

Also...

"As I said unless you come prepared, that bard will be dead before the second round. That is why I never understood why people call them overpowered. FYI, I believe the bard would win under these circumstances most of the time...like 6 out of 10."

Shield charge, Knockdown, Pommel Strike of 35, and Shield Bash of 35, stops you from doing any action if you have not use either song yet. So again theorycrafting. So to put it simple, there IS ONLY TWO WAYS THIS FIGHT CAN BE VIEWED. EITHER YOU CAME PREBUFFED OR YOU DON'T HAVE BUFFS ON AT ALL. The two results are as I stated.

Fighter can...

See above.

So no, the fighter

Again...

"Let me say I am theory crafting. (Along with chad's account) However, in regards to Song/Hymn of Requiem, it can be beat out. You will do 100 damage to a single target and heal for 100 per round. Weapon Masters can do 60 to 80 damage with critcals while adding FB can knock it up to 100 to 160 depending on the equipment. That means he can end the fight in two hits. Mirror image will be removed the same round and displacement will only reduce the number hits that land by 2 if the fighter-type built has blind fight. Fighter type builds have 390 to 420 while most bards have 240 and below. It takes 4 to 5 rounds to kill that fighter-type build and it takes 1 round to kill you. To put it simple, whether fighter-type has sonic immunity or not, if his damage output is greater than 59 per hit, he will end the fight in one round if he critical hits at least 3 times. And let's hope he does not disarm you to boot."

Bard AC with mithril fullplate is the same as the Fighters except 47. (10 Base + 20 dodge/natural/armor/deflect/shield, +2 heavy +8 fullplate + 3 dex + 3 tumble + 1 LoH) We can add in the Bard inspiration or possible feats you could take, but the average bard can't get 100 sonic damage and use inspire courage while being very defensive. I mean this is not a problem for a pure fighter as a pure fighter gets a AB of 50 with no enchants. And your AB will be crap if you pure all your points into charisma, which why Charisma bard suck. This is not only makes you easy to knock down, but makes easy to disarm too.

Now give that fighter a +4 weapon and +4 strength items for 6 more AB and the pure fighter has 56. The only way, he can miss you is if he hits you below 40. I will say again, mirror image AC is based on your dexterity meaning it disappears in the first round and with blindfight, he will possibly you hit you in between that and displacement. Even the NPCs on this server used those same spells and my pure fighter attack through that.

Much like many such builds, they may look cool because their big numbers, but they are ridiculously easy to counter.

Nope and see above why the bard gets toasted. It even made worst if sonic immunity introduced and lesser restoration. With a good AB, you just be a sitting duck unless you ran. My Hero build can use energy immunity scroll (thanks to cleric levels), can get disarm, knock, and 53 AB along expose weakness. His damage output is 62 per critical thanks to weapon master. Not only is he highly likely to ignore fascinate and haven, but can disarm you, sonic immune himself, and use restoration scrolls to remove any curse affects.

[Tsidkenu]

Boots/Potion/Scroll of Etherealness/Greater Sanctuary. There's the fighter's advantage gone. You've overestimating the utility of Shield Bash and Pommel Strike, especially when a bard/bg build will have 35+ fort save. Bard will buff. Fighter will buff. Fighter's buffs will be ripped from him with a scrolled Mords or Gtr Dispel and from there it's game over I suspect.

[mrm3ntalist]

Caster bards is a topic thats has been brought up in the qc forums. It is something we will look into, once we finish some other things in the pipeline. There wont be unlimited spell usage though and it will be something that will benefit caster bards explicitly.

Regarding the Bard FB/WM comparison, there is no comparison. PvP will always depend the player, however when a bard is prepared there is nothing a WM can do. On every other aspect of the game a bard is always superior to a FB/WM.

[ARHicks00]

Boots/Potion/Scroll of Etherealness/Greater Sanctuary. There's the fighter's advantage gone.

Quote, "As I said unless you come prepared, that bard will be dead before the second round. That is why I never understood why people call them overpowered. FYI, I believe the bard would win under these circumstances most of the time...like 6 out of 10."

Quote, "Shield charge, Knockdown, Pommel Strike of 35, and Shield Bash of 35, stops you from doing any action if you have not use either song yet. So again theorycrafting. So to put it simple, there IS ONLY TWO WAYS THIS FIGHT CAN BE VIEWED. EITHER YOU CAME PREBUFFED OR YOU DON'T HAVE BUFFS ON AT ALL. The two results are as I stated."

You've overestimating the utility of Shield Bash and Pommel Strike, especially when a bard/bg build will have 35+ fort save.

Fort save can get up to 18 fort with spells (24 against spells) and you would have to get a boat load of save items and you wouldn't have high AC, AB, or do 100 sonic damage in the process. Similar to what I said about AC. All this is theorycrafting and problem is the bard can't cover all his bases. We can do this all day, but sonic immunity or high damage output and you have a dead bard before the round is over. If he manages to pre-buff that is a different story, but even with pre-buffs a well made built will kill him and act like fighters or fighter types sit on 40 AB. They can get up to 50 to about 60 AB. All get a pommel strike and Shield Bash of 35 and Knockdown because you a crap strength score. You can't get 60 AC, 40 fort saves, 100 sonic damage, and 50 ish AB in same sitting. Bard can only focus on 1 thing.

Would bard come out on top...more than likely, but only 6 times out of 10.

Bard will buff. Fighter will buff. Fighter's buffs will be ripped from him with a scrolled Mords or Gtr Dispel and from there it's game over I suspect.

Fighter does not need to buff. It's not a cleric. No one is giving the bard time to buff. I will post it again.

Quote, "Shield charge, Knockdown, Pommel Strike of 35, and Shield Bash of 35, stops you from doing any action if you have not use either song yet. So again theorycrafting. So to put it simple, there IS ONLY TWO WAYS THIS FIGHT CAN BE VIEWED. EITHER YOU CAME PREBUFFED OR YOU DON'T HAVE BUFFS ON AT ALL. The two results are as I stated."

[ARHicks00]

Caster bards is a topic thats has been brought up in the qc forums. It is something we will look into, once we finish some other things in the pipeline. There wont be unlimited spell usage though and it will be something that will benefit caster bards explicitly.

Regarding the Bard FB/WM comparison, there is no comparison. PvP will always depend the player, however when a bard is prepared there is nothing a WM can do. On every other aspect of the game a bard is always superior to a FB/WM.

1. I just wish Canaith Lyricist was in this game and not nerfed to oblivion.

2. Superior, no, but likely to win...yeah. I don't know how people make their builds on their server, but I have used a tank build version of a fighter against Mith's training version of a bard and I won in the second round in my death. Adding blindfight and disarming the bard made a huge difference. Making a bard/fighter build using UMD made an even bigger difference.

[mrm3ntalist]

1. There is no way Kaedrins Version of Canaith Lyricist will be implemented as is. Not because KAedrin got it wrong or anything ( on the contrary ) but it is not a Caster PRC "compatible" with BG. Most likely BGs own version of the PRC will be implemented, in a similar way with the Dragon Disciple.

2. If you truly believe that bards are not superior (disregarding pvp) to any melee build , there is no point in arguing further. There have been more post than i would like to remember regarding this topic.

[ARHicks00]

1. There is no way Kaedrins Version of Canaith Lyricist will be implemented as is. Not because KAedrin got it wrong or anything ( on the contrary ) but it is not a Caster PRC "compatible" with BG. Most likely BGs own version of the PRC will be implemented, in a similar way with the Dragon Disciple.

2. If you truly believe that bards are not superior (disregarding pvp) to any melee build , there is no point in arguing further. There have been more post than i would like to remember regarding this topic.

1. Then don't add it at all. Same Dragon Disciple as you could just gotten rid of it instead having it in. None of the nerfs made any sense as from my view the nerfs attempted to counter powergaming and broke the class kind like what happen with Solar Channeler. It just got made worse. If a class is too powerful than don't add it. Even BG limits you can make overpowered builds, it doesn't powergaming, it simply shifts the power to another group or the exploitation of another group. That's why I find a lot of the nerfs unnecessary.

2. Dude, I've done the numbers and tested. Bard class is in-between class for a reason and you don't have to believe it if you don't want to. I can tell you haven't tested. Weapon Master deals more physical damage so that's not up for argument. Limited combat utility, they can't do what a rogue does without levels in rogue, they aren't good healers compared to clerics or druids. They aren't good spellcasters like sorcerers and wizards.

"Can do everything, but sucks at everything, the bard." -- Gamefaqs.com poster.

Best describes this class. As I said before, a well made WM/FB can do up to 100 to 160 damage with the right gear. Two to three attacks is all it takes to put a bard down. Hey may not always get those two to three attacks, but it is a small enough number to prevent the bard from being complete superior to everyone else...much less the WM/FB. You don't have to argue it (I much prefer you didn't) and you can believe that's how the bard is (we are free to have opinions), but theorycraft isn't enough to prove you are right....because it is theory craft.