The Crusader Paladin Kit Is Not Good Enough

[Invoker]

FYI: if you give it the chance to multiclass, then not only it will be hard to buff it, but it will likely even impossible to keep the kit as powerful as it is right now.

Forcing it 30 lvls means much more freedom to just buff it if QC feels that is warranted, without keeping into account cross-classing advantages (potentially very big ones, at that).

[RedLancer]

We did say that just condensing the kit down to 20 (19) levels would be sufficient, no further buff needed. The other kits are complete within 20 (19) levels with much greater power increases, so it's curious that Crusader draws out through 30.

[Atlas]

It seems to me that the people who want to specialize in the shield specialization feats have gotten what they wanted in the Cavalier.

And those who just want to be a Fighter stripped bare of abilities and a powerful spell book have gotten what they wanted from the Divinate.

And the vanilla Paladin is the same watered down thing it always was with again an upgraded spellbook.


I really don't think saying things like we should be grateful to be able to use a two handed weapon as opposed to being stuck with a one handed weapon and shield is any kind of argument?

And I really don't think making builds where the attribute spread is abhorrant to the degree where you have to have 13 intelligence and dexterity on top of decent strength, constitution, charisma and a token amount of wisdom, is any kind of basis for an argument either.

No other class in this game requires such a ridiculous spread of attributes. The Paladin was designed to be powerful from being either strength based or charisma based, or a combination of both.


The way the Paladin class has been treated on BGTSCC over the years has been obscene. There has been this constant undercurrent to place all of its power in a spellbook, a function that is supposed to be supplementary at best, and disregard all of the martial power it should possess as a holy knight and medieval champion.


There is a spell book enhanced Paladin on BGTSCC, and those who want to play that deformed version of the class can do so, but the Crusader should not be undermined by such and made weaker. If anything the Crusader should in fact be more mainstream than the others because it is the truest to the lore and what the arch type is meant to represent.


On one hand I think what it is right now should be condensed into twenty levels, because then that plus ten levels of Divine Champion would fill in all the holes of what it currently is. That would fit perfectly in fact I think.

But otherwise I think the idea of the proper noble ad&d Paladin who is a fighter of a higher stripe and calibre is the truest representation of what the arch type is supposed to be, and buffing the 30 level version of what it is right now would be the most ideal thing to do.


I think there has been some very good suggestions on how to buff it thus far, but regardless of whether its current incarnation is condensed into 20 levels, or the 30 level version is improved, it does very much need improving.


Other ideas of feats given to improve the thirty level version of the Crusader that I think are appropriate are the following:

Increase the ac bonus from Weapon Defence to +8,

The weapon specialization feat series and also something like Power Attack, Imp. Power Attack and Enhanced Power Attack.

Or the weapon specialization feat series and also something like Extra Smiting, Great Smiting I, Protection from Evil as an inherent aura like ability, and two extra uses of Lay on Hands.

Or something like Power Attack, Imp. Power Attack and Enhanced Power Attack, Extra Smiting, Great Smiting I, Protection from Evil as an inherent aura like ability, and two extra uses of Lay on Hands.

This is for 30 levels of a Paladin (Crusader) character. There are no esoteric alternative options for playing this character the way it is for others who multiclass into various different things. He doesn't entertain guests with a harp inside a palace (Bard), he isn't a spy (Rogue, Bard), he isn't a merchant, or a swashbuckler or a scoundrel or a mercenary, etc.

He is the medieval holy knight arch type devoted to chivalry and the vows made to his temple, and fighting for order and good.

[The Whistler]

I want to echo Nemni's point. Getting railroaded into building pure is very counter intuitive in the system's current iteration.

I believe that the kit should be condensed into 19 levels, even if that means taking a slight hit to its bonuses (AC 4 from 6, GWF instead of EWF and so on).

[Deathgrowl]

And those who just want to be a Fighter stripped bare of abilities and a powerful spell book have gotten what they wanted from the Divinate.

The only thing divinate loses is Smite Evil. In fact, it's better at spellcasting than the vanilla paladin.

I should know! I play one! Divinate is great!

[mrm3ntalist]

I want to echo Nemni's point. Getting railroaded into building pure is very counter intuitive in the system's current iteration.

I believe that the kit should be condensed into 19 levels, even if that means taking a slight hit to its bonuses (AC 4 from 6, GWF instead of PWF and so on).

Why you have to stay pure? You can multi class at any point especially after
- weapon focus
- greater weapon focus
- after you get the holy weapon sla
- after gettin epic weapon focus

If anything you can multiclass easier since you don’t have to worry about spell casting progression

[RedLancer]

If you don't take Crusader all the way to 30 to get the no-cooldown perk on Holy Sword, it goes from a "bad" kit to a "garbage" kit.

[The Whistler]

If holy sword gets a scaled cd reduction all the way up to no cd at 30, then multiclassing crusader might be worth the consideration.

For example: 10 mins at lvl 14, 6 at 20, 4 at 26, 0 at 30

Alternatively give it an increasing number of uses per rest. 2 at 14, 4 at 20.. You get the idea.

[chad878262]

I would honestly rather implement changes that just, in general makes two hander's more intriguing... Making one class that specifically allows for a decent two hander build isn't as interesting a solution to me as implementing feats or abilities that can make Two handers a better option. Currently there is simply no comparison between having a sword and board or dex/int split character. Better to be more survivable and still do nearly as much damage.

[Steve]

Wait though...what about just the RP of the class-kit?!?

Is the point of RPing a Crusader coming down to its power or its "purpose?"

Crusader as is isn't weak. But, as is, it isn't as mechanically strong as Divinate nor Cavalier. But there are also weaker Builds (Classes and or PrCs) that can be played successfully on BGTSCC, because one wants to pursue the RP of what's on your Character Sheet.

Crusader is not just a two-handed Build, it is a Paladin. Perhaps in the context of BGTSCC mechanics, the weakest Paladin, but a Paladin still and thus more than a two-handed build option.

I guess what I'm saying is make it a better mechanical PALADIN, first and foremost, and in the context of being not A) a board and sword Paladin; B) a superior spellcasting Divinate Paladin.

Paladin Paladin PALADIN!!!

[AlfarinIcebreaker]

Just narrow it down to 19 or 25 levels. The inability to obtain Evasion+Expose Weakness makes it poor.

[Valefort]

1. Crusader is fine as is, numbers in the previous pages abound to prove it.

2. Even if other possibilities might be better it does not matter one single bit because playability is what matters.

3. No one produced a better two-handing build than mrm3natlist yet, they all hinged on temporary buffs which is an issue Crusader doesn't have and that some refuse to acknowledge as an actual problem.

4. Making the holy sword scale a bit more along the 29 levels instead of just 14 and 29 might be a good idea. However the AC increases were made like this to prevent a 3 levels dip in tumble to get more AC because right now Crusader has enough goodies.

Also Crusader can be done in all the classical Paladin ways, ie full STR, CHA or going EDM. All of those are completely playable and fine.

[Steve]

My build produced better numbers!!! Haha!

But what has to be acknowledged is that the "classical" paladin has divine spellcasting. Crusader sacrifices this for an alternative play style and playability, but will not perform as well as a spellcasting paladin will.

I'm not complaining, because I choose to forgo buffing cause of how annoying it is, but it really should be acknowledged that on BGTSCC it is almost a requirement to use spells or UMD to experience all the content.

Of course, the answer to that is find a spellcaster to group with!

[electric mayhem]

I'm not complaining, because I choose to forgo bugging cause of how annoying it is, but it really should be acknowledged that on BGTSCC it is almost a requirement to use spells or UMD to experience all the content.

This.

Also, please just consider the fact that there are others out there whom have tried these classes and are offering unisolated feedback. Please don't outwardly dismiss the feedback and concerns, just because you may hold more information through privilege and experience.
The concerns may be valid. If there wasn't a problem... people wouldn't bring these topics up.

[chad878262]

Not exactly. Content and d&d in general is balanced to require a group. However, 3.x and NWN have some classes which can do it all themselves. UMD ALLOWS builds to circumvent the need for a party, but that's a player choice to use umd rather than spending time to find a party. Nothing wrong with the approach, but it isn't required to play.