The Crusader Paladin Kit Is Not Good Enough

[electric mayhem]

My point I've tried to address on this issue revolves around measuring a character at "full epic items".
Many people will be playing these builds, all the way up into the high epics, even if they hang out long enough to get the , lvl30 HS SLA feat.
And still, likely, may not have gotten past +3 AC gear.

Why do we balance characters when they are fully maxed out on epic gear stats?
I put forward that the +1 (moving from +3 to +4) bonus people may get if they luckily loot drop, or loot farm until they get enough gold to buy these (and theres 1 pair? of +4 boots, for assasins.... hence the UMD required to play the server?), should be a shruggable bonus to their character, that gives them a "you've earned it" bonus to living on the server.
Not considered the balance point.
Thankyou.

[mrm3ntalist]

+ 4 Shield Wand = 46; +2 Silverbeard = 48;

2 elemental dmg + 6 spells

There, i highlighted it for you. That is the reason why. If you want a crusader to be as powerful as a paladin with buffs from wands... Its difficult to happen. If you dont get it or not accept it thats fine, but we wont make a class more powerful because another can get better stats from umd or short duration buffs.

Why do we balance characters when they are fully maxed out on epic gear stats?

Because realistically thats the end game equipment a casual gamer can end up with. There is no issue here. Just because classes are balanced with end game equipment in mind does not mean they are not balanced when having lets say +3 equipment. We cant make decisions based on each ones different playstyle.

[electric mayhem]

Are we balancing against numbers that player characters can get against each other.

Or are we balancing against server PvE content to ensure people have a fun enjoyable and gainful experience?

edit: nvm, re-read the answer again. Yep, can't cater to everyone and every permutation. Thanks for the honest answer M3nt.

[mrm3ntalist]

It has nothing to do with honesty. Honesty, fairness have nothing to do with balancing mechanics because they are relative and have to do with many variable factors such as time, skill even luck. Every game, from the least to the most competitive, mechanics are balanced with end game stats, because that is a clear line we can have. Like i said before, just because decisions regarding mechanics are made with end game equipment, it does not mean that even with +3 the content is not playable.

[Steve]

LOL...the argument here has never been that Crusader isn't playable. Commoner is playable as well.

[mrm3ntalist]

LOL...the argument here has never been that Crusader isn't playable. Commoner is playable as well.

Of course the argument is not about the crusader being playable. That was for the comment that was amde about items. Crusader is great.

[Steve]

I still want to see those videos, mate!

EVIDENCE TO SWAY THE JURY!!!

[ARHicks00]

nothing planned

Poor Paladin. The least thought of class.[/quote]

[The Whistler]

If I were in charge of class fantasy on bgtscc I'd balance paladins around having hd/2 caster levels like they're supposed to. Atlas is right; paladin is a warrior first and spellcaster second. You can say the class performs adequately without buffs but in truth he's little more than a third rate fighter without them.

The crusader kit represents the ideal paladin to me; he is a holy warrior who, while lacking the fighter's deeper focus and weapon skill, has virtue and the favor of his deity on his side. That is represented by the holy sword SLA, immunity to disease, the lay on hands ability and... That's it, really. I believe that such a kit and paladins in general could stand to be made more potent against evil. All it takes currently to shut down this champion of light and goodness is an epic spellcaster (PC or NPC), that much should be plain enough for anyone to understand. Unless the paladin is prepared to burn through numerous least spell mantle wand charges he is toast. And even then he best hope that the spellcaster in question doesn't have a quickened breach or two slotted in.

Instead of balancing the crusader around a 2h focus, I would instead enhance his prowess against evil adversaries and spellcasters in particular. Innate spell resistance of 12+class level and +5 saves against spells with the evil descriptor. Permanent protection from evil enchantment as well as a death ward SLA at half CL would give him adequate protection vs his natural predator, the wizard. A good DM or PC would still demolish a paladin with absolute ease, in spite of these buffs. But it would make the class infinitely more survivable in PvM. These suggestions could form the basis of a fourth paladin kit as the crusader already has a faithful following that may dislike having their favorite specialization drastically altered.

In short, I suggest more thematic and focused changes instead of trying to make the paladin a better all-arounder. Make him a better evil-basher as that is what his class fantasy is all about. Yes, I am well aware that all of the above is based on personal opinion and that individual interpretations may vary. Apologies for going off on a tangent here, but paladin is one of the classes I'm kinda passionate about even though all my attempts at playing one on this server ended in less than a month.

[ARHicks00]

If I were in charge of class fantasy on bgtscc I'd balance paladins around having hd/2 caster levels like they're supposed to. Atlas is right; paladin is a warrior first and spellcaster second. You can say the class performs adequately without buffs but in truth he's little more than a third rate fighter without them.

The crusader kit represents the ideal paladin to me; he is a holy warrior who, while lacking the fighter's deeper focus and weapon skill, has virtue and the favor of his deity on his side. That is represented by the holy sword SLA, immunity to disease, the lay on hands ability and... That's it, really. I believe that such a kit and paladins in general could stand to be made more potent against evil. All it takes currently to shut down this champion of light and goodness is an epic spellcaster (PC or NPC), that much should be plain enough for anyone to understand. Unless the paladin is prepared to burn through numerous least spell mantle wand charges he is toast. And even then he best hope that the spellcaster in question doesn't have a quickened breach or two slotted in.

Instead of balancing the crusader around a 2h focus, I would instead enhance his prowess against evil adversaries and spellcasters in particular. Innate spell resistance of 12+class level and +5 saves against spells with the evil descriptor. Permanent protection from evil enchantment as well as a death ward SLA at half CL would give him adequate protection vs his natural predator, the wizard. A good DM or PC would still demolish a paladin with absolute ease, in spite of these buffs. But it would make the class infinitely more survivable in PvM. These suggestions could form the basis of a fourth paladin kit as the crusader already has a faithful following that may dislike having their favorite specialization drastically altered.

In short, I suggest more thematic and focused changes instead of trying to make the paladin a better all-arounder. Make him a better evil-basher as that is what his class fantasy is all about. Yes, I am well aware that all of the above is based on personal opinion and that individual interpretations may vary. Apologies for going off on a tangent here, but paladin is one of the classes I'm kinda passionate about even though all my attempts at playing one on this server ended in less than a month.

1. Paladin is suppose to 27 spellcaster levels not 15. They also get a free horse. However since 99% of the DND games never added this in, DM/Staff have come up with alternatives.

2. Paladin need sense motive, lore religion, lore nobility, lore planes, diplomacy, spellcraft, and Tumble.

3. Paladin need more PrCs then ones in their Kits. I made suggestions in another topic. One of the reasons, paladins are heavily ignore because they do an excess amount of holy damage and people exaggerate how power they are.

[Steve]

The crusader kit represents the ideal paladin to me; he is a holy warrior who, while lacking the fighter's deeper focus and weapon skill, has virtue and the favor of his deity on his side. That is represented by the holy sword SLA, immunity to disease, the lay on hands ability and... That's it, really. I believe that such a kit and paladins in general could stand to be made more potent against evil. All it takes currently to shut down this champion of light and goodness is an epic spellcaster (PC or NPC), that much should be plain enough for anyone to understand. Unless the paladin is prepared to burn through numerous least spell mantle wand charges he is toast. And even then he best hope that the spellcaster in question doesn't have a quickened breach or two slotted in.

Instead of balancing the crusader around a 2h focus, I would instead enhance his prowess against evil adversaries ...

I very agree with you Whistlekins. This is why on Page 4 of this thread, I tried to turn the conversation toward looking at where the Crusader SHOULD be in terms of Paladin Kits, and if anything, help the Crusader become more of a Paladin TYPE, then the "worry" over how good a 2-hander it can be (of the 4 Paladin types available). But right now, on BGTSCC, there are a handful of 2-handed builds that are much better mechanically than Crusader, and more of less ARE the Crusader but do not have any of the Paladin RP/baggage that ANY Paladin must have (in order to stay a Paladin!).

Hidden: show

Wait though...what about just the RP of the class-kit?!?

Is the point of RPing a Crusader coming down to its power or its "purpose?"

Crusader as is isn't weak. But, as is, it isn't as mechanically strong as Divinate nor Cavalier. But there are also weaker Builds (Classes and or PrCs) that can be played successfully on BGTSCC, because one wants to pursue the RP of what's on your Character Sheet.

Crusader is not just a two-handed Build, it is a Paladin. Perhaps in the context of BGTSCC mechanics, the weakest Paladin, but a Paladin still and thus more than a two-handed build option.

I guess what I'm saying is make it a better mechanical PALADIN, first and foremost, and in the context of being not A) a board and sword Paladin; B) a superior spellcasting Divinate Paladin.

Paladin Paladin PALADIN!!!

It seems off, that, for example, Cavalier gets Extra Smiting, Great Smiting I and Favored Enemies on top of all the other goodies, in exchange for Turn Undead, to which it can easily mitigate because of all the extra damage from Kit-granted Feats so that it really does not need EDM. It ALSO gets a Holy Sword from regular spellbook!!

Crusader? It seems Crusader should be the greater Smiter, the greater "Knight against Evil!"

Hellz...just read it's description: "Crusaders are paladins who hear the call to fight evil every waking hour."

Maybe Crusader then, in order to keep it apart from Cavalier and Divinate, should be given more "Undead" related powers, such as Extra Turning (I, II, or III), Empower Turning, or Planar Turning. Or maybe some of those Divine feats, like Sacred Vengeance, Divine Fortune or Divine Vigor?!?

Then at least the Crusader would become much more a "fight against Evil" type of Paladin than just a best 2-hander Paladin (of what's available in the kit/vanilla department).

[The Whistler]

1. Paladin is suppose to 27 spellcaster levels not 15. They also get a free horse. However since 99% of the DND games never added this in, DM/Staff have come up with alternatives.

Paladin gets halved caster levels both in pnp and in vanilla nwn2. K's paladin 'spirits' would be worth looking into as instantly activated combat enhancements for a spellbook-less paladin, but perhaps such a discussion warrants its own thread.

[ARHicks00]

1. Paladin is suppose to 27 spellcaster levels not 15. They also get a free horse. However since 99% of the DND games never added this in, DM/Staff have come up with alternatives.

Paladin gets halved caster levels both in pnp and in vanilla nwn2. K's paladin 'spirits' would be worth looking into as instantly activated combat enhancements for a spellbook-less paladin, but perhaps such a discussion warrants its own thread.

Must of been thinking of their turn undead. I wish i had my old DM manual.

[electric mayhem]

They also get a free horse. However since 99% of the DND games never added this in, DM/Staff have come up with alternatives.

The class builders could perhaps think of giving all Paladins the Fast Movement 10% feat in outdoor environments, to simulate having a horse? Attainable at Lvl10.

[ARHicks00]

They also get a free horse. However since 99% of the DND games never added this in, DM/Staff have come up with alternatives.

The class builders could perhaps think of giving all Paladins the Fast Movement 10% feat in outdoor environments, to simulate having a horse? Attainable at Lvl10.

I think the paladin should get a Pathfinder upgrade but that is just me.