Dragon Disciple multiclass limitations

Suggestions Should Be Posted in Their Respective Categories

Moderators: Moderator, Developer, DM

ARHicks00
Posts: 559
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:28 am

Re: Dragon Disciple multiclass limitations

Unread post by ARHicks00 »

mrm3ntalist wrote:I will never get tired of saying it. This version of DD is much better for caster sorcerer - the class that the PRC is primary made for - than the version you speak of. There were no nerfs to DD. It was made from scratch to be a better fit for caster sorcs
And I will never get tired of saying it does not follow lore or dnd rules. This PrC version is not even remotely close to what was intended, but I respect the staff's decision since this is THEIR server

But don't tell me with a smile on your face that it keeps true to PrC or it brings balance because I am going to look you the same way I look at people who silently fart in the elevator or when a politician tries to shake my hand.
Last edited by ARHicks00 on Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
ARHicks00
Posts: 559
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:28 am

Re: Dragon Disciple multiclass limitations

Unread post by ARHicks00 »

chad878262 wrote:There is a lot of misinformation in this thread. M3nt is not lying, QC wise there is no issue with Dragon Slayer/Dragon Disciple or Dragon Warrior/Dragon Disciple.
Please don't tell what ypu consider a lie and what is truth. That's a matter of opinion, sir. As I said DND is a game where you can however you want within the rules and no one else can dictate how you play. Nothing contradicting about the combination either as I (and others) gave examples hoe those combos can exist

At best you end up with either a (much) worse caster or a lower CL gish. Dragon Disciple CAN be used to make an EDM Sorc Gish, sure....but with low BAB and 7/10 caster progression it is simply not as good as what was possible before Dragon Disciple was implemented.
And this matters why?
As to the vanilla Dragon Disciple class, that thing had very little reason for existing other than for power building stat bumps.
Something we agree on, but that's besides the point as this is the same view point is exactly many feats and PrCs as well as class combination were nerfed or not allowed.
Requires caster levels, but gives no caster progression. Gives melee feats and abilities, but is not designed as a melee specialist. It's basically giving up ~4-10 levels in order to gain stat bumps. The way it was designed and implemented here is much more interesting and is one of the few PRC's introduced that can give a slight power-up to good and evil aligned sorcerers, instead of just evil. S6/ASoC 10/DD10/AM4 might be a fun Sorc Caster/Blaster or dropping ASoC for Frost Mage might be neat. Can be built better without Dragon Disciple so no issues, but it does add some nice benefit in the way of +1 DC through CHA. Also synergy with Blood Magus as well so could go that route. Lots of interesting options which Sorcerer's were likely quite happy with.
It was nerfed and as well as prohibited from certain class combination not for RP reasons or to enhance the RP as dragon's blood can run through anyone. It was done to stop powergaming which you just admitted. It didn't have to have caster levels and it didn't have to be just for sorcerers.
Last edited by ARHicks00 on Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
chad878262
Posts: 9332
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:55 pm

Re: Dragon Disciple multiclass limitations

Unread post by chad878262 »

ARHicks00 wrote:Please don't tell what ypu consider a lie and what is truth. That's a matter of opinion, sir. As I said DND is a game where you can however you want within the rules and no one else can dictate how you play. Nothing contradicting about the combination either as I (and others) gave examples hoe those combos can exist
Well, I'm in QC. I know for a FACT (not OPINION) what was discussed. D&D is a game based around the ability to make house rules. Within the confines of a given group (or PW) how you play is dictated by the whims of a given group leader, GM, or PW Administration. In this case, M3nt has stated it was not a QC concern that nullifies Dragon Disciple existing in the same build as other Dragon PRC's. Whether you chose to believe this or not is up to you, of course. Not sure why we would lie about such a thing though. It's clear to anyone with eyes and any knowledge of how dispels work that the classes do not mix well.
ARHicks00 wrote:And this matters why?
That was simply one of the concerns with dragon disciple and bonus stat increases. Just calling out that it is not an issue with the iteration implemented on this server.
ARHicks00 wrote:Something we agreed, but that's besides the point as this same view point is exactly many feats and PrCs were nerfed or not.
And rather than nerf it, we built what many consider to be a more interesting class as a homebrew. It isn't a nerf since the class did not exist on this PW prior. While some of the stat increases of the class are lower, it also has 7/10 caster progression vs. 0/10. So from the standpoint of it being a caster PRC it was improved.
ARHicks00 wrote:It was nerfed not RP reason or to enhance the RP as dragon's blood can run through anyone. It was done to stop powergaming which you just admitted.
I think you're reading things in your head that aren't written on the forums. I simply stated that
chad878262 wrote:As to the vanilla Dragon Disciple class, that thing had very little reason for existing other than for power building stat bumps. Requires caster levels, but gives no caster progression. Gives melee feats and abilities, but is not designed as a melee specialist. It's basically giving up ~4-10 levels in order to gain stat bumps. The way it was designed and implemented here is much more interesting and is one of the few PRC's introduced that can give a slight power-up to good and evil aligned sorcerers, instead of just evil.
Nothing in this quote has anything to do with nerfs or RP so much as calling out the power-gameyness of Dragon Disciple. It further indicates that the iteration implemented for this server is more focused on the fact that it comes from Dragon Blood giving Sorcerous or Bardic spellcasting. Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant, but it cannot be denied that the way it was implemented here is focused on having more investment in spell casting and not just as a gateway to stat gains for EDM builds.


As a final note, for those that have played PnP, most would agree that individual groups form homebrew rules over time based on the type of group you have. If the players are constantly powerbuilding and the RP doesn't follow along the DM will likely step in and either balance around the powerbuilding or institute RP or OOC penalties for it. Here, in a PW environment we balance around what can be done because if there is an exploit, bug or perk of a class/combination it is going to be utilized. I read about it on other forums, where Winged Dragon Disciples are a dime a dozen, most of which have exactly four levels and don't even RP the fact that they are essentially a circus freak (or course they wouldn't be, with 100's of such abominations running around). There are of course similar issues on this server with Aasimar and Tieflings being far more prevalent among the adventuring community, but that doesn't mean it should be expanded upon.
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

Tarent's Wands and Elixirs

A Wand Crafter's guide to using wands
ARHicks00
Posts: 559
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:28 am

Re: Dragon Disciple multiclass limitations

Unread post by ARHicks00 »

My whole point was we (as in all of us) are too focused on stopping power gaming instead of enjoying the game. Yes, Dragon Disciple is a PrC used for Powergaming as I would be lying if I said other wise, but why does it matter when most if the classes in this game aren't balanced? I was also pointing put that limiting classes or nerfing only servers to limited the roleplaying. Dragon Disciple is a PrC for both the bard and sorcerer, yet it is limited to one class. I personally think both the nerf and class limitation served no real purpose nor improved roleplay.
chad878262
Posts: 9332
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:55 pm

Re: Dragon Disciple multiclass limitations

Unread post by chad878262 »

Bards can still take Dragon Disciple. It's actually a great option for Bards that would otherwise go PaleMaster, but want good alignment, for example.
Chord Silverstrings - Bard and OSR Squire / Tarent Nefzen - Arcane Wand Merchant and Master Alchemist / Irrace Arkentlar - Drow Adventurer / Finneaus Du'Veil - Gem Merchant and Executive Officer of SCCE

Tarent's Wands and Elixirs

A Wand Crafter's guide to using wands
User avatar
mrm3ntalist
Retired Staff
Posts: 7809
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:31 pm
Location: US of A

Re: Dragon Disciple multiclass limitations

Unread post by mrm3ntalist »

ARHicks00 wrote:And I will never get tired of saying it does not follow lore or dnd rules. This PrC version is not even remotely close to what was intended, but I respect the staff's decision since this is THEIR server
https://dndtools.net/classes/dragon-disciple/ :cry:
Mendel - Ranger, Harper, Villi | Elias Raemir The Unyielding Aegis | Tahlaer of the High Forest | Nikos Berenicus - Initiate of the Mirari | Efialtes Rodius - Blood Magus

Spelling mistakes are purposely entered for your entertainment! ChatGPT "ruined" the fun :(
ARHicks00
Posts: 559
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:28 am

Re: Dragon Disciple multiclass limitations

Unread post by ARHicks00 »

mrm3ntalist wrote:
ARHicks00 wrote:And I will never get tired of saying it does not follow lore or dnd rules. This PrC version is not even remotely close to what was intended, but I respect the staff's decision since this is THEIR server
https://dndtools.net/classes/dragon-disciple/ :cry:
Sorry, my phone could load in the link so I added mine only for the link I added to identical.
User avatar
Blackman D
Retired Staff
Posts: 4818
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 5:43 am
Location: IL

Re: Dragon Disciple multiclass limitations

Unread post by Blackman D »

1. Despite what they said. I'm 36 years old and I know for a fact the nerfs for most of the class were done out of paranoia that some kid might wtf own the server.
i wasnt paranoid about anything, its a simple matter of trying to get a class that was banned for being OP, and had a lot of hate against it, reimplemented
I for one am quite happy with Dragon Disciple's new version on the server. Mine is hardly a power to be reckoned with, but it is fun and flavourful.
which was the intention ;)
And I will never get tired of saying it does not follow lore or dnd rules. This PrC version is not even remotely close to what was intended, but I respect the staff's decision since this is THEIR server
it follows exactly actually, with the only changes of the nerfed stats and instead of spells per day there is actual caster level progression which makes it way better as a caster prc instead of a fighter prc with minor not gonna get used casting ability

literally the only two differences, anything else is a mechanical limitation that was either not possible or not approved, like blind fight to replace blind sense and the wings which was not approved
ARHicks00 wrote:Please don't tell what ypu consider a lie and what is truth. That's a matter of opinion, sir. As I said DND is a game where you can however you want within the rules and no one else can dictate how you play. Nothing contradicting about the combination either as I (and others) gave examples hoe those combos can exist
neither of them were lying and as m3ntalist said the harsh restrictions were done to get it moving to be reimplemented which he was probably quoting from me in the thread given i am the one who remade dragon disciple

PM was the only mechanical restriction, DW and DS didnt make sense to combine with DD but rather have to deal with people figuring out if it would be an issue i simply said no

if there are no balance issues with it then it could be lifted, tho again doesnt make much sense even if it isnt restricted lore wise, its odd rp wise
At best you end up with either a (much) worse caster or a lower CL gish. Dragon Disciple CAN be used to make an EDM Sorc Gish, sure....but with low BAB and 7/10 caster progression it is simply not as good as what was possible before Dragon Disciple was implemented.


And this matters why?
it matters because it means DD wasnt implemented to be all powerful, but as something with rp flavor

if you dont like DD then you can make better combinations, but if you want to rp a DD then you can
My whole point was we (as in all of us) are too focused on stopping power gaming instead of enjoying the game. Yes, Dragon Disciple is a PrC used for Powergaming as I would be lying if I said other wise, but why does it matter when most if the classes in this game aren't balanced? I was also pointing put that limiting classes or nerfing only servers to limited the roleplaying. Dragon Disciple is a PrC for both the bard and sorcerer, yet it is limited to one class. I personally think both the nerf and class limitation served no real purpose nor improved roleplay.
i enjoy DD quite a lot actually, i usually always play a 20 sorc 10 DD, on this server tho since it was banned my main had to go PM but still rp'd as draconic blood but was just unable to tap into it

what i didnt really enjoy was that it was finally reimplemented long after she became a lich and a NPC... given that it took like 9 yrs for DD to be added back :|

and yes, bards were not left out... but were in fact harmed during the making of the film... because it was fun :dance:
everyone is evil till proven otherwise
User avatar
Ravial
Custom Content
Posts: 922
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:11 am
Location: Poland

Re: Dragon Disciple multiclass limitations

Unread post by Ravial »

Dragon Disciple is ALMOST identical to what it actually is in 3.5 version of it. The only differences between the original one and BGTSCC one are:
  • No super huge STR bonuses.
  • No wings.
  • Caster Level Progression.
Aside of that? Literally, the entire class is the 1:1 progression into becoming a half-dragon. If you're saying that the PRC is nothing even remotely what Dragon Disciple is supposed to be, then I'm afraid that I'll just have to call you wrong. Wings aren't mandatory at all, and in 3.5 rules only Large Creatures can have wings as a half-dragon. And super dooper strength isn't madatory either. Caster Level Progression is a -considerable buff- to the otherwise a PRC that only gives you bonus spells.

The only thing I'd change to Dragon Disciple is changing Blind Fight to Scent feat, since it's more in line with Blindsense which they should get.

Anyway, please. Let us not derail the topic. It is about allowing or disallowing multiclass, not Dragon Disciple being trash or not.
"I sometimes wonder if Ravial is actually rav'ialquessir irl" ~ Colonic 2017

~Viridiana Lydhaer - Retired. Silverymoon!
~Arundae Dyraalis - Retired.
~Amaevael Laelyssil - Retired, Selu'Taar on Evermeet
~Laeria Amarillis - #HideThePainLaeria

Ravial ~ By CommanderKrieg ~
User avatar
mrm3ntalist
Retired Staff
Posts: 7809
Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:31 pm
Location: US of A

Re: Dragon Disciple multiclass limitations

Unread post by mrm3ntalist »

BMD made a great suggestion regarding Dragon Disciple. I am having a lot of fun with 3 different builds

- A blaster Sorc/Asoc/Frostmage/DD with Very high AC, 26CON ( buffed ), Fast healing III, Piercing cold, immunity to cold and fire, High Saves and immunity to paralysis. It is unkillable.
- A DC Sorc/HarperMAge/Archmage/DragonDisciple with 38CHA + Spellcasting prodigy. Very High DCs, mastery of elements and a couple of immunities along with 48AC
- and the least fun a DragonDisciple/Bladesinger with 14 starting CHA

This PRC made some unique sorcerer builds possible. A great PRC for Sorcerer. My only concern is that it doesnt have similar impact with caster bards. However, due to the nature of bards it is difficult to make something that will benefit caster bards, but wont empower STR ones. There is one bard build i would like to try though, maybe when the next 100% rcr happens :D
Mendel - Ranger, Harper, Villi | Elias Raemir The Unyielding Aegis | Tahlaer of the High Forest | Nikos Berenicus - Initiate of the Mirari | Efialtes Rodius - Blood Magus

Spelling mistakes are purposely entered for your entertainment! ChatGPT "ruined" the fun :(
Post Reply

Return to “Suggestions and Discussion”