Phantom AC Bugged

[Diamore]

While I have reported it elsewhere I was looking for some input or confirmation from other players.

After more testing today, I have found that both my characters with 3 Ranks of Phantom only benefit from +3 AC regardless of their actual Wisdom or equipment.

Perhaps AC bonus is being limited by levels as per Duelist or Invisible Blade? Can anyone with more levels and decent Wisdom confirm that theirs is working correctly or not? Or if you have the same issue even.

I was fooled when I first tested by forgetting to include Tumble and Luck of Heroes when calculating my AC.

[Hendrak]

As i read this i vaguely remember that phantom WIS AC is limited to class level.

Reason was to avoid uber Druid/Phantoms.

I am not sure. I think Valefort somewhere wrote it.

He may know for sure.

[Diamore]

Thanks for that Hendrak, I was able to track down the reference easy enough now.

Revision: 1951
Author: Valefort
Date: Sunday, May 20, 2018 5:59:18 AM
Message:
Modifying the phantom AC capped by Phantom levels so that it only kicks in if you have more than 20 wisdom so that the low level Phantoms aren't impacted.

The last time I played a lot was around June so that lines up with how less effective my characters have become.

But this ruling is not on any of the Phantom entries for the forums, wiki or the in game descriptions.

I am equal parts confused and annoyed at such a change. Phantom is not a powerful class and the bonus AC would be the same as is gained from taking Monk for 3 levels. This just makes Phantom a purely inferior choice for all wisdom builds now. AC from both those classes do not assist any shapeshifting forms, so the original reason for Monks limitation when combined with Druid is no longer valid.

This change specifically hurts non-shifting based Druids and any other non-lawful wisdom builds. Darkfire Disciples also lose the synergy they had with the sneak attack granting Phantom class.

I would very much like to see the reasoning for this very specific and niche nerfing of a class.

[Hendrak]

Null problemo , friend!

Valefort is our Mr.Tidy. He almost does the whole wiki updates alone. A small oversight; ill update the Phantom page on it. I also planned to take a phantom dip on a build but have to rethink about it.

There was a discussion and explanation for the change, but i cant reeber it. Some dip which hugely benefitted from it.

Didnt understand your complain about Darkfire Disciole& Phantom. could you expkain that? the SA should stack.

[mrm3ntalist]

I would very much like to see the reasoning for this very specific and niche nerfing of a class.

Which class is nerfed? Phantom or Druid?

[Diamore]

"Specific niche nerfing of a class"

The small niche use of Phantom in Druid builds and Darkfire Disciple builds has been nerfed. This was a very specific nerf to the Phantom ability. I'm not certain where the confusion is mrm3ntalist.


Darkfire Disciple is a wisdom based class that requires sneak attack, hide and move silently. One of the few prestige classes that synergies with Phantom's whole kit.

Unlike other classes in the game, Druid's still do not have access to Monk. On other threads I had pointed out that some druids can make do with Phantom. This change to Phantom makes this no longer the case.

[mrm3ntalist]

"Specific niche nerfing of a class"

The small niche use of Phantom in Druid builds and Darkfire Disciple builds has been nerfed. This was a very specific nerf to the Phantom ability. I'm not certain where the confusion is mrm3ntalist.

There is no confusion. I just wanted to be clear. The phantom class was not nerfed. What was nerfed is the bonus you get by dipping into 3 levels in a class. The same way when you don’t get level 9 spells by dipping into 3 levels of Druid , the same way the ac bonus for phantom scales.

If you were leveling a phantom you wouldn’t even notice the change.

[Diamore]

The Phantom ability was reduced in power. It has been specifically reduced in effectiveness when multi-classing. That is what is normally considered a nerf.

Comparing it to spell casting bonuses is incredibly disingenuous of you. It is the exact same ability that Monks have and can be directly compared to that ability. If you also intend to limit the Monk AC bonus ability (nerfing it) then that would at least be consistent.

I still haven't seen a reason for this change however.

[SyntheticRose]

Because your AC will be redonkulous if you were allowed to combine a WIS-AC class with Owl's Insight (the only ability score which has such a massive buff spell). I'm certain that if there existed a similar spell for INT, let's call it 'Fox's Genius' or something, then the very same nerf would be a given for INT-AC classes to specifically disallow crazy stacking -- except it already is inherent in the fact that INT-AC classes are capped by your class level -- Duelist and Invisible Blade add 1 point of your INT modifier per level, while Bladesinger and Deathsinger 1 point of your INT modifier per 2 levels, and are further capped at half of your INT modifier, requiring 30 INT (or full investment with an 18 at creation and all 7 points at level-ups) to reach +5 AC.

Monks don't have that -- 20 WIS at 1st is worth 5 AC. The easily-attainable 40-plus WIS that can be reached with Owl's Insight? ...Would be worth +15-something AC with such a dip.

[Diamore]

Monk - Spirit Shaman already has access to that combination. It also has Sacred Fist.

The bonus gained from dipping into Phantom is now less than light armour gives. If you have 20 Wisdom or more. So if you build a 20 Wis character it works fine, if you invest any more you lose 2 AC. If it capped you at +5 until you had more than 5 levels it would at least have some logic to it.

Likewise, if the spell Owl's Insight is causing the problem, you could equally change it so that only base stats, not bonuses, count. The same way that Fist of the Forest works.

[mrm3ntalist]

I dont know why it is hard to understand. Most PRCs that were created for the nwn2 expansions and considered gameplay with epic characters, had their AC bonus scale eg Duelist, Invisible blade. Fist of the forest doesnt but only takes into consideration only BASE CON. It is not proper ( in lack of better words ) to get full bonuses of a class/prc ability, by just taking a 3 level dip. That is the definition of powergaming and while it happens we should not encourage it.

If we were to design every class/feat/spell from scratch, we would have done things differently for things such as, monk, FS, Bard, Divine power etc.

[Diamore]

It is difficult to understand because you have not yet made a case for the change. A 3 level dip for a class feature is not power gaming. Don't claim this.

• Monk gains Wisdom AC, full and unchanged.
• Spirit Shaman has full access to Monk and Owls Insight
• Phantom grants you -less- AC if you invest in Wisdom.
• Fist of the Forest shows the AC ability could simply be altered to ignore bonuses to fix the Owl's Insight boost
• Divine Might/Divine Shield scale directly with Charisma at full benefit regardless of levels chosen.
• Warlock, Paladin and BG all boost saves, scaling directly with Charisma regardless of levels chosen.

The removal of a build option for a base class is this way is unnecessary. Several classes continue to benefit from this for a 3 level dip and this server already has the 3 before 20 rule to ensure some investment for returns.

What is the case for this change? Again, Monk already exists and does the exact same thing.

[chad878262]

I had a big explanation written up, but I think it's better to keep it simple in this case.

1. We have always stated we do not want custom content to be as strong as the strongest things offered in vanilla content. Where classes or PRC struggle we have made the effort to improve them (Barbarian, Swashbuckler, Rogue, Darkfire Disciple, etc.)
2. Making it only base Wisdom would be a nerf to PURE Phantoms which can use scrolls or potions of Owl's Insight or simple amulets or other items giving bonus to wisdom.
3. There was no removal of a build option. Phantom is a class introduced on this server by server staff, thus it increased build options. For example, one way to build a DFD is C14/R3/SD3/DFD10. Phantom 3 is in in some ways better than Rogue 3 for that build. Not only is it +3 AC from Wisdom, but it also get's 3 uses of Ki/Ghost Step in exchange for Rogue Trapfinding ability.
4. Phantom was specifically introduced to encourage pure/near pure builds. This can be seen in the way the abilities are gained. Evasion, Crippling Strike, Improved Evasion and Trap Finding are all key Rogue talents that we wanted to make sure a Phantom could also get, but we did not want to replace every Rogue 3 or 4 dip with Phantoms. Thus the abilities were spread throughout the leveling. The AC bonus was set up to do the same thing, reward further progression within the class while not making for significantly more powerful dips.

[Diamore]

The answer is you don't want people to dip Phantom and you wanted to ensure it was not mechanically as good as other choices?

Success I suppose?

That Darkfire Disciple build could be built like that. But as you have established, that is not as good a mechanical choice.

My Darkfire was 3 Phantom, 4 Fighter, 10 DFD and 4 Cleric (eventually 13) of Leira. I put on armour and became better. The same as would happen with your build above. It was already a low powered build due to DFD, now it was a low AC low powered build. It is now a basic Cleric because the heart of the theme for the build was gone and it was even harder and slower to play than before.

This change does limit build choices and options. It does make the Phantom an even lower choice than it was before. The fact that this was QCs intention doesn't justify that decision.

[mrm3ntalist]

Dipping 3 levels into phantom, does not make the class a good option. Nor does the countless builds with rogue 3 make rogue a better class.