Faithless/False/The Wall

[Planehopper]

It is my assertion that no characters (or only a very learned few) would know anything about the wall of faithless souls in the fugue plane. This is due to the interaction within the Avatar trilogy of novels. It was not common knowledge.

Here is the first snippet of lore about faithless/false from Faiths & Avatars:

Most folk have a handful of powers that they regularly venerate, only appeasing an unpleasant power when they are entering or engaged in a situation where that deity holds sway. Most people in the Realms also eventually settle on a sort of patron deity who they are most comfortable venerating and who they hold in the greatest reverence. A person's patron deity is the power that eventually escorts that person's spirit trom the Fugue Plain, the place where spirits go right after people die, to its afterlife as a petitioner in the Outer Planes in the realm (or at least the plane) of its patron deity.

(Those who firmly deny any faith or have only given lip service most of their lives and never ttuly believed are known as the Faithless aftet death. They ate formed into a living wall around the City of Strife—Kelemvor, the new lord of the dead, may soon tename it—in the tealm of the dead in Oinos in the Gray Waste and left thete until they dissolve. The unearthly gteenish mold that holds the wall together eventually destroys them.

The False, those who intentionally betrayed a faith they believed in and to which they made a personal commitment, are relegated to eternal punishment in the City of Strife after their case is ruled upon by Kelemvor in the Crystal Spire (Kelemvor's abode in the City of Strife). Some folk of Faerun choose to devote their lives to a particular god. Most often these people are priests; others belong to other classes, such as paladins or mages. These folk are expected to be loyal to their faith because of the commitment they have personally sworn to a power, although they may respect the faiths of other deities who their deity serves or is allied to.

Not all folk have a patron deity. That does not make them False. False is a determination based on those who have intentionally betrayed a faith they believed in.

There was nothing mentioned about the wall previously, as this was a retconned bit of lore that happened in 2nd edition books.

That is all to say that this may be wholly different depending upon what DMs have ruled in the past. From 2008-2011ish, the wall and the interactions on the fugue were not common knowledge and it had been considered metagaming. I dont know what happened afterward.

[thids]

The Faithless are mortals who do not have a divine patron. This could be because the mortal never worshiped a deity (or rejected outright the worship of any deity), the mortal's divine patron has died, or that their divine patron rejected them for whatever reason. A soul who does worship a deity but did not sufficiently uphold their patron's dogma is instead judged False.

I mixed up faithless and false a bit in my post in the FORBIDDEN *GASP* thread But that's the gist of it.

Granted, there is no dogma that requires a simple worshiper to run around screaming their gods name at every single opportunity. Often the patron deity is a personal and private matter for simple worshipers.

[Tsidkenu]

The deities of Faerun are deeply enmeshed in the functioning of the world's magical ecology and the lives of mortals. Characters of Toril nearly always have a patron deity. Everyone in Faerun knows that those who die without having a patron deity to send a servant to collect them from the Fugue Plane at their death spend an eternity writhing in the Wall of the Faithless or disappear into the hells of the devils or the infernos of the demons.

Of more concern to most adventurers, a character who dies without a patron deity cannot be raised from the dead by any mortal means short of a miracle or wish. When such a character dies, he is considered one of the Faithless, and his soul is used to form part of the wall around the realm of [Myrkul - our current setting 1354 DR], god of the dead. Mortal action cannot reverse this fate, and so unless the character's friends can arrange direct intervention by another deity... that character is unlikely to return to life.

You can only have one patron deity at a time. It is possible to change your patron, but doing so is not a decision made lightly or quickly... any other character class [other than divine spellcasters: cleric, druid, paladin or spellcasting ranger], changing a patron is a simple matter of deciding to do so that does not require intervention by the church of your new patron (although obtaining its blessing is customary, to show allegiance to the new deity). A character who frequently changes patron deities is likely to gain a reputation of being weak in her faith, and risks being branded as one of the False in the afterlife.

It is possible for a cleric, druid paladin or spellcasting ranger (or any other divine spellcaster) to abandon his chosen deity and take up the faith of another deity. In doing so, the divine spellcaster loses all class features of the abandoned deity. To progress as a divine spellcaster of another faith, the character must go on a quest for his new church (often the recovery of a lost item of some importance to the deity), then receive an atonement spell from a representative of his new faith. Once these two conditions are met, the character becomes a divine spellcaster of the new deity, and if a cleric, he chooses two domains from the new deity's repertoire. The character then resumes the class features lost from leaving the old faith (so long as they are still applicable - turning and rebuking undead ability might change [from good to evil or vice versa] for instance).

Permadeath for the godless... now that's a suggestion I can get behind!!!

[Planehopper]

Everyone in Faerun knows that those who die without having a patron deity to send a servant to collect them from the Fugue Plane at their death spend an eternity writhing in the Wall of the Faithless or disappear into the hells of the devils or the infernos of the demons.

After the Time of Troubles, yes.

What edition are these references from?

[Okan]

If the knowledge about the Wall indeed became common knowledge after Avatar triology, I think quoting FRCS is a bit counter-intuitive as it covers a timeline was set more than a decade those events. They are from 3rd edition which covers 1370s

[enginseer-42]

Even then, I see no logical Reason for Myrkul to keep the Wall a secret from his followers. And no logical reason for those followers to then keep it secret from the rest of Faerun. It serves his purposes that the wall is known.

So, while knowledge of the wall might be Proscribed lore in Baldur's Gate, anyone with even a passing knowledge of the Church of Myrkul should know that they preach about the wall. So it could be a controversial thing certainly. But not totally unknown.

[thids]

It doesn't matter if it is known or not known, the way people worship gods did not change over night during ToT. You either have a divine patron, or you are faithless, that is the point of it.

[whatsittoya]

I can't imagine why anyone educated in the divine mysteries (clerics) would be unaware of something so absolutely pertinent to matters of every faith. There's nothing to gain from keeping the consequences of faithlessness or falseness a secret. How the afterlife works would be a fundamental piece of information in every faith.

[enginseer-42]

I could see why Good deities might keep it a secret. As a point of pride/shame type thing. Nobody wants to be the one to go to War with Myrkul over his treatment of the Faithless/False but it could cause trouble if it became known that they allowed or condoned it.

[whatsittoya]

Well here's the thing, they don't necessarily allow or condone it. After all, they send their agents to claim their faithful and save them from the wall. Goodly deities don't want anyone to go to the wall, but they can't do anything about those who turn their back on faith.

Letting people know about the wall will save a lot more souls from it than keeping it a secret. If anything, goodly deities would have more of an interest in bringing the truth about it, because it would save souls. Keeping something so terrible and preventable a secret is probably evil.

[Planehopper]

It actually did change overnight. At the conclusion of the ToT when Ao changed the way worshippers gave the gods their power. Prior to the ToT the gods didn't give two coppers about their worshippers - that was part of the mess. Only after the avatar crisis did the gods derive their power from number and fervor or followers.

Unless it is being RPd differently. Sounds like it's a DM question.

[whatsittoya]

I mean I'm sure it's said that the gods don't care, but if they really didn't care they wouldn't grant spells, have organized religions, answer communings, or any of the things that they often already do before the ToT. Some gods care so much they get titles based on how much they cry.

The whole issue with the gods not caring is a case saying one thing and doing another; in theory the gods don't care, while in practice they sure seem pretty damn invested in everything going on down here and who's doing it. Enough to grant spells, enough to interact directly with mortals, enough to rescue their souls from the City of Strife. Sounds like an awful lot of trouble for not caring.

[thids]

It actually did change overnight. At the conclusion of the ToT when Ao changed the way worshippers gave the gods their power. Prior to the ToT the gods didn't give two coppers about their worshippers - that was part of the mess. Only after the avatar crisis did the gods derive their power from number and fervor or followers.

Unless it is being RPd differently. Sounds like it's a DM question.

The rules for the gods changed, the way worship in general is conducted among the populace of Faerun hardly did.

[Okan]

It actually did change overnight. At the conclusion of the ToT when Ao changed the way worshippers gave the gods their power. Prior to the ToT the gods didn't give two coppers about their worshippers - that was part of the mess. Only after the avatar crisis did the gods derive their power from number and fervor or followers.

Unless it is being RPd differently. Sounds like it's a DM question.

The rules for the gods changed, the way worship in general is conducted among the populace of Faerun hardly did.

I don't know, if the knowledge of eternal damnation and eventual nothingness would come in the case of not worshipping any deity became common knowledge, I can imagine many of people would have a drastic change in their beliefs really fast. The rule itself for the mortals might not have changed but the knowledge of the rules they had changed and that itself affects the conduct dramatically.

[Arn]

I agree with the OP. It was my understanding that at this stage of the timeline, the Wall of the Faithless is not well-known.

In 2016, I asked what my monk would know about the Wall, since he worships no deity. This reply from DM Ioulaum says, in pertinent part:

At this time the existence of the wall is not well known in Faerun. Its existence only becomes commonly known (as doctrine) during and after the Time of Troubles, when Ao thrusts all Gods to the earth to walk there in their mortal form. As punishment for stealing the Tablets of Fate (For us that moment is still in the future, if it ever comes to pass).

Knowledge of the wall of the faithless is often met with skepticism, and not even all clergy are aware of its existence. Some Churches do not formally teach its existence through their doctrine because they haven't established internally how to reconcile it with their Deity's teachings. The Church of Myrkul openly and accurately teaches its existence (but isn't considered very trustworthy).

In particular the church of Tyr is divided on it, as it stands in as an affront to Tyr's ideals, while most other Churches acknowledge it in some form through allegory, or vague tales meant to inspire virtue and wisdom. There are also those Churches who try to use the wall or similar stories to acquire converts: with fear and intimidation (Talos, Bhaal, Bane, Myrkul, Talona, Beshaba etc..).

Whether or not a particular order of Monks puts stock in the tales of Myrkul's Church, or the teachings of other Churches, depends on the individual NPCs. Most wouldn't, but during their spriritual growth they would eventually sense (a vague impression depending on their wisdom score) what shape their fate is, without a Deity, as well as what it might be with a Deity. Which isn't necessarily more agreeable.

I'm going to spoiler this because it's veering off-topic, but Ed Greenwood has said the following about belief in the gods and being Faithless:

Hidden: show

"It’s important NOT to think of the Realms in terms of real-world monotheism. Everyone in the Realms 'believes in' ALL the gods."

• So Saith Ed, March 31, 2008

The Wall of the Faithless and the False are for those who repudiate some or all of the gods, or seek to defy “the system” (usually because they have become insane) by denying that the gods and faith have any usefulness or validity at all - - or who assert that EVERYTHING mortals know about the gods is utterly wrong because the gods deceive mortals habitually, all the time, about all matters. It is more of a threat to living mortals than a popular, heavily-populated destination, and in the past the ranks of the tortured entities there have been raided by deities and mighty-in-magic individuals (such as certain archwizards, dragons, and others) for “raw materials” (sentiences) to empower new creature creations. Which is a topic I shouldn’t elaborate more on, just now.

• So Saith Ed, 8 Sept 2012