Creating undead....for good?!

[Snow]

We were havin a debate in the discord about undead being sometimes not evil and the extent of that....and it came down to "gotta ask DMs!".

So, here is the situation.

Army of death is a high level undead summoning spell that is classed as evil. BUT in the description it lists how it can actually be used for good! https://bgtscc.fandom.com/wiki/Army_of_Death

The spell is not evil when cast by clerics of Urogalan, He Who Must Be, the Halfling god of earth and death. While animating the dead is considered a grave matter in polite halfling society, it is permitted to rouse them in defence of the life giving soil, and the living communities which toil on it. Such acts are only undertaken rarely and in defense of the community after due ritual has been observed to avoid bringing negative energy into the world and offending the ancestors.

That got me thinking about how far this "good undead summoning" goes. It seems to boil down to more about

1) Intentions of the caster
2) Willingness of the undead to return to fight
3) Gods permission in the act?

So, a powerful hin cleric (as in the example) rousing an army of their willing kin to defend their village is not evil.

The thing is, I have a hin (chaotic good, of course)....who is a commoner. I've also discovered a robe that the description says has icons on it (only seen by the wearer) that she can take off and throw down that turn into real undead (greater undead summoning). Would it be possible to justify her using such a robe for good? Rationalized as the robe being a part of her back story and that the icons are of her lost family or villagers that come to aid her in her quest for justice and goodness?

It seems like it falls in line with how hin are willing to use undead magic (and how their ancestors and gods are permissive in it, allowing it to happen without negative energies and without offending ancestors).

[DM Golem]

There isn't a clear answer to this one, but I will say that all the examples of non-evil undead (or undead created by non-evil acts) have some connection to the divine. Clerics have the sanction of the gods in a way other follows do not, and indeed at the level of power one can summon "army of the dead" have access to powerful divination spells including Commune. In essence divine intervention in Faerun is through a cleric. The gods can in fact refuse to allow spells to be cast outwith the tenants of their dogma. Whereas a magic item like a scroll is just that. A magic item.

Additionally, specific reference is made to additional rituals by clergy being a specific part of this undead creation; that supports the idea that the Urgolan "not evil" exception would not apply to faithful - it would be clerical only.

Alas, that means your concept can't work.

[Snow]

Whereas a magic item like a scroll is just that. A magic item.

Additionally, specific reference is made to additional rituals by clergy being a specific part of this undead creation; that supports the idea that the Urgolan "not evil" exception would not apply to faithful - it would be clerical only.

The item is simply a description of how it works (tiny icons on a robe, only seen by wearer, when cast down it becomes the undead)....but it doesn't say anything about the origin / creation / purpose.

So it could have been made specifically by clerics of Urogalan , specifically for the village hin to protect them as they venture out. ((Especially since the way the undead are being called is so unusual, icons? Not using random bodies, but instead very specific sources for the undead.....the hins own kin willing to help, as they do in defending the village on a much much larger scale)).

While animating the dead is considered a grave matter in polite halfling society, it is permitted to rouse them in defence of the life giving soil, and the living communities which toil on it.

It seems to indicate that raising the dead for some hin villages isn't just isolated to this giant force....but instead just one example of how, in general, raising the dead is permitted (through whatever means) AS LONG as it is to defend the communities in some way (so a commoner leaving for a special purpose would fit under that realm of being protected).

The evil part of undead summoning seems to be linked to the negative energies and willingness of the dead. Having it done in this way under the cleric + gods guideance is avoiding the evilness in the same way it does summoning an army to defend against bandits.

It seems more than just reading a scroll that is magic, there is more going on with the robe (even in its own description)....in a way that could fall in line with hin traditional use of undead magic (tradition!!).

[Zethrenx99]

The only types of innately "Evil" summoning of undead are undead that are summoned from the negative plane (i.e. the spell summon undead in PnP). Necromancy isn't of itself "Evil" though its use is considered to be vile and despicable. The idea of desecrating a corpse of some one's relative and use it to do your bidding is considered an Evil thing to do but the magic itself isn't innately evil. So, an example of necromancy being used in a not technically evil way: A consensus among its civilization that the use of their corpses after death to protect their people is acceptable. These would include ancestral burials with ghostly or undead guardians ect and halflings. But in the same token, grave robbing, looting of corpses, devouring corpses (canibilism), Use of corpses for reagents, opening of tombs, ect are all considered "Evil" but aren't innately evil depending on the culture.

[Wolfrayne]

Cited from Various sources in relation to undead in FR lore.

Necromancy the school -

Necromancy spells manipulate the energies of life and death. Such spells can grant an extra reserve of life force, drain the life energy from another creature, create the undead, or even bring the dead back to life. Creating the undead through the use of necromancy spells such as animate dead is not a good act, and only evil casters use such spells frequently.

The exception here is that some Deities use undead (Such as spirits) to commune with their followers or deliver messages, for example, the dwarven god Dumathoin would sometimes use undead dwarves as divine messengers.


The 6 Types of Reanimation.

1. Purposeful personal reanimation - This is where a living creature willingly undergoes the transformation to undeath. In most cases, the creature will already be evil, but this is not always the case. The most common reasons a creature seeks undeath are: fear of dying of old age, fear of dying from a wound and power. (Ie Palemaster who can be neutral)

2. Minions - This is where an intelligent creature creates undead creatures to serve their own ends. Undead are often used as guards. Evil spellcasters often create hordes of undead to do their bidding.

3. Atrocity calls to unlife - This is where a creature commits an evil, heinous act and is transformed into an undead creature. Not every such act results in undead creation and it is completely random. It's common enough for evil creatures to become undead this way, but anyone who commits an evil enough act can become undead because of it.

4. Unfinished Business - This is where a creature dies or is killed with an important deed left undone. Not every creature with such a need results in them becoming undead and it is completely random. Any intelligent creature, of any alignment can become undead in this way.

5. The Dark Curse - This is where the evil forces simply create undead at random. This can happen to any creature, anywhere and at anytime.

6. Death by wounds caused by another undead - Most forms of undead will cause their victim to become one of their type by causing a mortal wound. This is common in ghouls and vampires. This can affect a creature of any alignment.


The reality of the situation is that raising undead is an evil act, doing so would shift your alignment over to evil if you did so often enough regardless of the intent. In fact any spell that has the "Evil" Descriptor is evil and eventualy corrupts the caster. There is no 'Grey area" in Forgotten realms, the world was designed very black and white.

[DM Golem]

To be clear, this question has been answered relating to the specific request about the exception cited in the spell description and the answer is that faith and items are not enough.

To note, the discussion is not about if there are non-evil undead (there are), or if there are non-evil ways of creating undead (there are), or if those are available to PCs (they aren't without DM approval).

I'm not personally aware of any categorical ways of non-evil undead coming about without divine involvement.

There are two non-evil ways of summoning undead on the server that don't need DM oversight, but I'm going to leave that as a teaser

We are going to review the text of that spell, as its an obscure snippet of lore and we aren't sure if its actually able to sustain the weight that might be put on it, or whether its the same kind of outlier as Sir Guth of Ilmaterm Miltiades of Tyr, or Lathanderite Ju-Ju Zombies (IE firmly DM territory)

[Snow]

To note, the discussion is not about if there are non-evil undead (there are), or if there are non-evil ways of creating undead (there are), or if those are available to PCs (they aren't without DM approval).

There are two non-evil ways of summoning undead on the server that don't need DM oversight, but I'm going to leave that as a teaser

I'm getting mixed signals here

[DM Golem]

Creating undead is not the same as summoning undead.

In the same way a Summon Creature spell does not create a wolf.

And there are two ways to summon non-evil undead on the server.

But alas otherwise, its divine only and DM permission only

[Tsidkenu]

Revenance is not an evil spell, Golem, nor does it require a DM to be present

Although apparently it's Conjuration and not Necromancy so *shrug*

[Zethrenx99]

A couple of things, I think that the lore on creation of undead is not as understood as suggested in the previous post. A prime example is https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Baelnorn_lich Which are elven undead defenders that can be created by elven high magic via the school of necromancy and are not "summoned" through divine means.

As for the evil descriptor, descriptors only purpose in 3.5 is for cleric restrictions. This is for divine based casting as certain spells are not within the domain of certain deities, The evil and good descriptors exist for simplicity as undeath isn't a descriptor.

On alignments and the shifting of alignment based purely on casting a spell, the rules in 3.5 don't address this and would be server specific. The only thing that a DM may consider the adjustment of alignment of one of his players (in PnP) is through character intent:

"Choosing an alignment for your character means stating your
intent to play that character a certain way. If your character acts in a
way more appropriate to another alignment, the DM may decide
that your character’s alignment has changed to match her actions."

That isn't to say that necromancy (raising of dead) isn't generally evil and shouldn't be seen as evil but as my previous post suggested it is a matter of very specific intent where it may be considered neutral at best. The general raising of corpses for your own gains is still evil, bodies aren't to be played with.

[Zethrenx99]

Additional canon non-evil necromancer that raised undead:

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Kazerabet

[Endelyon]

I've gone ahead and approved these posts on the vague notion that they are indeed "questions," however, I'd like to gently remind everyone that the Questions for DMs forums is not a place for players to debate a topic with each other or provide source examples of why the DM's answer might be wrong (not because DMs are infallible/know everything, but because not every answer is decided based on what the canon example says).

This is a place for players to ask a DIRECT question to the DM team and receive a DIRECT response from the team, and that's why the section requires approval in the first place.

Most of these posts are really frankly better suited for PMs to the DM team, which is the appropriate course of action to take if you disagree with an answer to a question they've given or want them to expand on it with more information. If they feel it's merited based on the information you've given them, they will make an amendment to their ruling or answer here. It's also worth noting that providing canon source evidence of something is not enough to say that it's definitively true in our server canon, and like all things, these questions are left to the discretion of the DM team to decide (which is why this forum is here).

[DM Golem]

Revenance is not an evil spell, Golem, nor does it require a DM to be present

Although apparently it's Conjuration and not Necromancy so *shrug*

Bingo! Thats one method. It is indeed conjuration, that summons an undead.

[metaquad4]

Revenance is not an evil spell, Golem, nor does it require a DM to be present

Although apparently it's Conjuration and not Necromancy so *shrug*

Bingo! Thats one method. It is indeed conjuration, that summons an undead.

That and Shadowdancer's 'summon' Shadow!

[DM Soulcatcher]

A couple of things, I think that the lore on creation of undead is not as understood as suggested in the previous post. A prime example is https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Baelnorn_lich Which are elven undead defenders that can be created by elven high magic via the school of necromancy and are not "summoned" through divine means.

As for the evil descriptor, descriptors only purpose in 3.5 is for cleric restrictions. This is for divine based casting as certain spells are not within the domain of certain deities, The evil and good descriptors exist for simplicity as undeath isn't a descriptor.

On alignments and the shifting of alignment based purely on casting a spell, the rules in 3.5 don't address this and would be server specific. The only thing that a DM may consider the adjustment of alignment of one of his players (in PnP) is through character intent.

Elven High Magic is spells and magic that exist outside of Mystra's ban and her direct governance. In fact, every High Magic spell has to be sanctioned by Corellon Larethian himself High Magic is entirely governed by the chief elven deity of their pantheon and that alone makes it governed by divine means. It's also not just any magic that anyone can access and/or master. If you read more about Baelnorns, you'll also learn that their existence and creation is very carefully observed by Sehanine Moonbow- yet another elven deity. It's not a process that involves 100% mortals at all.

Descriptors aren't only mechanical- they literally define the nature of the spell. If something has an evil, good, chaotic, fire, water, lawful descriptor, then the spell is of that cosmical type and it invokes that factual cosmical power. A spellcaster using such spells is literally channeling those cosmical powers around him and through himself. Those spells and their effects regarding alignments or elemental heritage -matter- in a literal sense. Maw of Chaos, abjuration spell, is a chaotic spell and it will leave Chaotic characters mostly unscratched, while non-chaotic ones are in for a very bad day.

As for the alignments...


3.0/3.5 does speak upon it The reason why it's stated here that they "may get away with it" is that it's still an evil spell and it still leads you towards becoming evil, but if you're doing it for arguably good actions- you may not become evil or at least not as much as you could've (To put it in example, let's assume casting an X spell nets you 2 evil points, but you're doing it in order to save a group of innocent refugees from a merciless warlord for no payment at all, which nets you 2 good aligned points. It means you come out at 0 points either way). If you're using spells that are channeling energies or will of cosmical evil/deities that are a representation literal evil, don't be surprised if that power changes you towards being evil.

Going back to undead topic, though, there of course exist non-evil undead. Crypt Things, Baelnorns (as they are loved to be brought up), Revenants, Shadowdancer's Summon Shadow, Archliches and etc. However, what people seem to forget and what DM Golem have stated, those nearly always have a divine background at them or otherwise specialsauce supernatural background (Undead create themselves, or Shadowdancer's Shadow). By no means it's any type of conventional magic, at all. Conventional magic is simply unable to create non-evil undead without having a divine means to back it up, and then it's non-conventional anymore (Tyr directly making Militades, Hoar giving his priests the power of creating Revenants in 2nd edition (though he's Neutral, not good aligned), Corellon & Sehanine overseeing and sanctioning creation ONLY of Baelnorns, even Archliches have a divine spark behind them, because they get Turn Undead ability which is not a standard undead ability whatsoever).