What's the point of nonstacking Dex buffs?

[blacksoft]

Soo...Fist of Forest has shortish (depending on con and feats) buff for +4 Dex. What is it doing exactly? Most people already have +2-3 Dex gear and hope to attain +4 by epics. What makes a stacking Dex too strong? Barbarian can stack their rage bonuses. Also Breach gnome appears to have the same issue. The Dex bonus might as well not be there and be replaced with something else...what am I missing?
At least Frenzied Besrker's strength goes higher than the item stats available. (Although his frenzy has other shortcomings which should be the reason to enable stacking as well - that -4 AC is a huge debuff, much worse than the self inflicted damage. There are epic feats to increase just 1 AC. Losing that AC is extraordinary important)
Thanks

[Valefort]

You're missing a couple of things. First stacking is not straightforward in NWN2, you've got to go through hoops scripting wise and it's not without pitfalls and exploits. Secondly you have to take server history into account and +4 DEX items are an anomaly there, for the longest time +2 and +3 items were the norm and a +4 temporary buff was therefore interesting. Thirdly not everyone will go to the length of getting such expensive items and certainly not at low levels.

[Tekill]

With a couple extend rage feats that 6 damage per round really starts to add up, a feat that does over a 100 pts of self inflicted damage. Not a good feat. Then on top of that your AC drops by 4pts.
1) Ice Troll Berserker should at least be added to this feat when its used. To sort of balance it out a bit.
2) Fist of the Forest is such a specific niche class. Would the temp increased dex really create am imbalance?
3) Why not add Ice Troll Affects to the Fist of the Forest and Battle Ragers rages too. If its mechanically possible and easy to do that is.

[Hendrak]

I am playing a monk / Fist of the Forest.

I am almost never using the FoF rage and if then for the +AB bonus.

But Fist of the Forest has huge other benefits for me.

CON base to AC, blindfight, High BAB progression, good Fort and Ref saves.

also the +1d4 dmg with unarmed and blindfight. Only disadvante is that i had to pick PowerAttack but never use it as its incompatible with Flurry of Blows.

Overall for only 3 levels i get a lot. Stuff i desperatly need to "function" with my build.

[Wolfrayne]

Bonuses to Stats have never stacked unless specified and there are only a very few cases where this is the norm. Otherwise people would just be running around with godlike ridiculous stats... D&D it has always taken the highest increase.

[Rudolph]

At least the +4 DEX feat adds +1 AC to builds that don't use a +4 DEX item (such items are still hard to find on anything but gloves, of which the FoF will want to use high EB and damage ones). The prize for most superfluous temporary DEX bonus goes to the Bear Warrior rage non-stacking +2 DEX.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

I took fotf for RP reasons.... It added a ton of flavor to a character otherwise devoid of purpose.

[blacksoft]

You're missing a couple of things. First stacking is not straightforward in NWN2, you've got to go through hoops scripting wise and it's not without pitfalls and exploits. Secondly you have to take server history into account and +4 DEX items are an anomaly there, for the longest time +2 and +3 items were the norm and a +4 temporary buff was therefore interesting. Thirdly not everyone will go to the length of getting such expensive items and certainly not at low levels.

Okay, so I can't speak to the complication of imlplementing stacking rules.
It's still a short buff and only specific builds can extend it for longer periods of time and doubtful they can do this at lower levels. Also, you can only have two uses as extra rage doesn't modify its uses. Also, if everyone I building for +3 Dex item, then +4 does nothing for them except in temporary situations during leveling.
I agree other parts of the class are great.

[Endelyon]

I used the dex buff pretty frequently. This might just boil down to build and personal preference.

[Okan]

Bonuses to Stats have never stacked unless specified and there are only a very few cases where this is the norm. Otherwise people would just be running around with godlike ridiculous stats... D&D it has always taken the highest increase.

This is more of an nwn2 thing than D&D 3.5, which is built upon stacking modifiers and stats from different sources, hence why there are so many types of bonuses. It took the highest increase of the same type of bonus. Which the fotf bonus to Dexterity is untyped hence supposed to stack with everything.

Not that I think it should stack that way but claiming stat stacking in nwn2 works like its PnP counterpart is simply not true.

[Wolfrayne]

personally i see Rage as using adrenaline and putting less accuracy and more force behind a blow so it makes sense that it can go above and beyond a magical buff

[chad878262]

Rather than ask what he balance concern is with stacking DEX buffs I would say that since a change to a long standing mechanic is being requested that it falls on the requesting party(ies) to indicate what the problem is with the class that they need the boost. Fist of the Forest is not an unpopular PRC, far from it and as stated you do get quite a lot for 3 levels investment. I have seen it used with Bear Warrior builds as a kind of Fist Fighting Barbarian/Bear man, I have seen it with Fighter builds that want to be a fist fighter without Monk and I have seen it used on Monk builds that want to focus on more of a STR/CON split rather than WIS or DEX. Regardless the reasoning it is a PRC that gives options to build non-standard classes and it does that quite well. When you're going for a STR /CON build though you are necessarily giving up DEX/WIS. giving that DEX back in a stacking fashion equates to ~ +2 AC which theoretically could swing the 'power' of the server a bit. After all the whole point of class building is to find that combination of AC, Saves, AB and damage or in some cases to understand where your weak point is and how to deal with it. If you make a super tank that has relatively low damage than you count on sky high AC to avoid enemies confirming crits and saves + steadfast to ensure you are protected from most spell casting. This allows your low damage to be nothing other than the annoyance of slowly waiting for your toon to whittle through HP pools. If you make a high damage rogue build then you learn to use HiPS, wands and scrolls to ensure you are immune to whatever spells are going to be fired at you and Epic Dodge to cover for your AC that's around 5-10 points lower than you want it to be on a non-HiPS build. Giving back something that is a weakness of a build by definition is increasing the power. FotF is already doing that by allowing CON to AC in ADDITION to DEX (and possibly WIS depending if Monk is in the build). Not sure why stacking DEX would be necessary for them.

Frenzied Berserker Rage has it's place as well, though I am by no means saying the rage is 'worth it' in the context of how the server is set up. If wands weren't so easy to get from other players or by creating your own crafting PC then FB Rage would be a huge boon regardless of the HP damage since it would be a way for a non-caster to gain death magic immunity. In any case, again this is a PRC that is already a popular selection so I question why it needs more by granting stacking DEX buffs. I think a request such as this should provide examples of why you're thinking something doesn't work or works poorly which would work better with the improvement/buff requested. This would allow QC/Devs/Admin to look at the request and determine if either the request has merit and perhaps something wasn't considered fully or if perhaps feedback can be given as to why it's working as designed and what you are gaining in comparison to what you gave up.

[metaquad4]

Honestly, stacking should probably be implemented for some of these abilities. From what I understand as a layperson, there are two ways to do it:

Say you want +4 DEX to stack. Then you can say +2 Dodge AC, +2 Reflex, and if weapon finesse is present then +2 AB.

Or if you wanted +4 STR, you could say +3 Damage to Mainhand (+2 to Offhand) and +2 AB. One of the main issues to STR is the two-handed weapon bonus, but adding that automatically to the main-hand could be considered compensation for losing out on things like STR-Based feat DCs and KD power.

I do wonder if it is possible to do the above for when an ability would push your STR above +12. Like with Barbarian 20/10 Frenzied Berserker combos.

You could also do it as Kaedrin did his stacking buffs. When the buff is activated, it looks at your current dex and adds +4 to that for the duration of the ability. So if you had +4 DEX from an item, it would give you +8 for the duration of the ability.

[blacksoft]

Rather than ask what he balance concern is with stacking DEX buffs I would say that since a change to a long standing mechanic is being requested that it falls on the requesting party(ies) to indicate what the problem is with the class that they need the boost. Fist of the Forest is not an unpopular PRC, far from it and as stated you do get quite a lot for 3 levels investment. I have seen it used with Bear Warrior builds as a kind of Fist Fighting Barbarian/Bear man, I have seen it with Fighter builds that want to be a fist fighter without Monk and I have seen it used on Monk builds that want to focus on more of a STR/CON split rather than WIS or DEX. Regardless the reasoning it is a PRC that gives options to build non-standard classes and it does that quite well. When you're going for a STR /CON build though you are necessarily giving up DEX/WIS. giving that DEX back in a stacking fashion equates to ~ +2 AC which theoretically could swing the 'power' of the server a bit. Giving back something that is a weakness of a build by definition is increasing the power. FotF is already doing that by allowing CON to AC in ADDITION to DEX (and possibly WIS depending if Monk is in the build). Not sure why stacking DEX would be necessary for them. In any case, again this is a PRC that is already a popular selection so I question why it needs more by granting stacking DEX buffs. I think a request such as this should provide examples of why you're thinking something doesn't work or works poorly which would work better with the improvement/buff requested. This would allow QC/Devs/Admin to look at the request and determine if either the request has merit and perhaps something wasn't considered fully or if perhaps feedback can be given as to why it's working as designed and what you are gaining in comparison to what you gave up.

Okay, quite a bit to unpack and I am in no means claiming I am a resident expert in doing as such, but because I opened up this conversation, i will reply with what I can see.

One - the class had been implemented with a rage-like buff that adds +4 to dex. Feral stance is meant to replicate animalistic attributes - I would think that those feral tendencies would not be able to be replicated by tacking on dex item (suchlike pale master's undead form). You are suggesting that I first say what is wrong with the class in order to question this buff - I am only questioning what is already seemingly part of its mechanic. Yet, it currently appears to be mostly superfluous.

Two - On the assumption that I need to explain why this class needs extra help/buff for an ability it already has, I would suggest for you to compare this to Dwarven defender's defensive stance (which are stackable). Yes, the DD class is the quintessential tank class, as it should be. However, Both FotF and Breach Gnome (in my opinion) are attempting to accomplish a similar thing. FotF cannot do this if the DEX bonuses do not stack. The Con AC bonus is mitigated by however much natural Con you put into it. This means that for whatever natural CON you are adding you are taking from somewhere else. This is why I believe the original intention for the class to have feral stance with +4 to dex (as well as +2 AB bonus) was to offset the opportunity cost of putting natural points into CON rather than strength, wisdom or dex. (i.e you are almost ending where you started AC-wise if you had not). The feral stance is meant to take your CON decision and bring it to the next level where you can have a total net gain and have a bit of the dwarven defender's tankiness.

Frenzied Berserker Rage has it's place as well, though I am by no means saying the rage is 'worth it' in the context of how the server is set up.

FB level 5 for supreme cleave, toughness, and EPA - not frenzy are the main reasons this class is popular. Most people who go FB would probably still take it even if the Frenzy was not implemented at all.

[blacksoft]

I do wonder if it is possible to do the above for when an ability would push your STR above +12. Like with Barbarian 20/10 Frenzied Berserker combos.

Take a look at what Realm of Trinity did with FB frenzy:

- Frenzy: A 1st-level frenzied berserker gains the ability to frenzy. Frenzy adds a +3 bonus to Attack Bonus (no Constitution bonus), imposes a -4 penalty to AC, and gives the frenzied berserker a single extra attack at his highest Base Attack Bonus. Each round of the frenzy, the frenzied berserker takes 2 points of damage. The effects last 3 + Constitution modifier rounds, after which the frenzied berserker is fatigued for 5 rounds, suffering -2 Strength, -2 Dexterity, and -10% movement penalties. Level 10 Frenzied Berserkers are no longer fatigued by using Frenzy. Initially, this ability can be used once per day and at 3rd level and every odd level after that, the frenzied berserker gains an additional use per day. Bonuses and penalties (including fatigue effects) from Frenzy and Barbarian Rage stack with each other.

Greater Frenzy: At 8th level, the frenzied berserker gains a +5 bonus to AB while frenzying instead of a +3. He also suffers only -2 penalty to AC instead of -4.

Inspire Frenzy: Specifics: At 6th level, the frenzied berserker can inspire Frenzy in all allies. This ability has no effect on the frenzied berserker, only the berserker's allies. The Frenzy effect adds a +3 bonus to AB (no Constitution bonus), imposes a -4 penalty to AC, and gives the subjects a single extra attack at their highest Base Attack Bonus. Each round of the frenzy, the subjects takes 12 points of damage. The effects last one round per frenzied berserker level, after which the subjects are fatigued for 2 rounds, suffering -2 Strength, -2 Dexterity, and -10% movement penalties. The frenzied berserker can use this ability once per day at 6th level, twice at 8th level, and three times at 10th level

Now Realm of Trinity has really powerful damage items, so here in BG, I would not to suggest to remove the damage bonuses that regular frenzy provides as RoT had.