Zen Archery and Crossbow Sniper

[izzul]

oh dont get me wrong,

i already have Xbow belt, +4 wisdom helmet, +4 wisdom amulet, epic xbow, and and full item set ready to play this one if it gets through.

i will gladly prefer this Zen Archery Xbow sniper than that other Xbow that have 7 will saves and 40 AC. even with hips, i might get breached dispelled/finger of death/confused/dominated everywhere i go at epic places because i have to stay 30 feet to deliver that death attack.

i also dont have to worry about my fortitude saves like petrification from beholder and yuan ti queen, avasculate, disintegrate, and wail since my fort is higher that that Xbow bad boi

perhaps i can put in Vampiric Feast too with that high DC, add some icing on the cake implosion, Harm, searing light/sunburts for undead.

i also dont have to tank in front, sit back, heal and deal 80 damage a shot higher than the weapon master in front of me. safe and sound.

anything wrong, i can sanctuary myself and mass heal everyone to full hp compared to the non caster Xbow.

come to think of it, i like the idea, makes life easier.

why not? more powahh for me

[chad878262]

C14/A8/H8. CL 29, HiPS, full buffs, death attack damage with many shot bug and wis for ab/dmg. Can save the feat needed for practice caster by using xbow that comes with rapid reload.

[Hendrak]

Mine DEX version of that saves the feat by being a wood elf and picking the elf domain for free point blank shot feat.

Also picked Sheverash with the domains Strength and Elf.

[Kaeldre]

D22/Ass8 sounds pretty lethal. HIPS at 21, but can just Wildshape druid (tree) until then anyway.

HIPs.
All druid buffs(Stat buffs, Skills (h/ms/s/l, AC, DR, DW, SR, EImm etc), immunities etc. Assuming the damage spells (flame/frost weapon and storm avatar) are disabled on ranged, it's not as OP as it could be.
But the AB... oh the AB... will be aweful. Double Medium BAB classes

Even then... Wildshape druid still pwns Ranged druid. On dmg output.

/ofbadidea.

What about Paladin Divinate then. Don't they get a spell that gives them the equivalent fighter BAB level?
They've got a pretty sweet spell line... but their weapon spells don't work on ranged.
/anothernotsogreatidea

Yeah, you're right. I dont think druids or paladins will make much use of this change if it is implemented, although a few my try it out.

Owl's Insight + Shapechange (Arboreal Elf) + Sniper feats dmg.

You'd think xbow feats wouldn't apply, but I've heard players using those bad arse Darts with Arboreal Elf plus other fears to achieve sick damage

This is a very good catch, I had not even thought about polymorph forms. If it turns out that this combination is strong then maybe we should disable zen archery when polymorphed? Assuming the change gets implemented.

oh dont get me wrong,

i already have Xbow belt, +4 wisdom helmet, +4 wisdom amulet, epic xbow, and and full item set ready to play this one if it gets through.

i will gladly prefer this Zen Archery Xbow sniper than that other Xbow that have 7 will saves and 40 AC. even with hips, i might get breached dispelled/finger of death/confused/dominated everywhere i go at epic places because i have to stay 30 feet to deliver that death attack.

i also dont have to worry about my fortitude saves like petrification from beholder and yuan ti queen, avasculate, disintegrate, and wail since my fort is higher that that Xbow bad boi

perhaps i can put in Vampiric Feast too with that high DC, add some icing on the cake implosion, Harm, searing light/sunburts for undead.

i also dont have to tank in front, sit back, heal and deal 80 damage a shot higher than the weapon master in front of me. safe and sound.

anything wrong, i can sanctuary myself and mass heal everyone to full hp compared to the non caster Xbow.

come to think of it, i like the idea, makes life easier.

why not? more powahh for me

Stick to the subject at hand, izzul. We dont want to be reminded of your luscious supply of epic items, we can't all be as fortunate as you

All builds have strengths and weaknesses, I'm not saying that a crossbow cleric doesn't have its strengths compared to the crossbow fighter/ranger. You'll get better saves as a crossbow cleric, sure. But you wont reach as high of an AB, even while buffed. Neither will you deal as much damage, even while buffed. You will be able to cast high DC implosions, but the rest of your spells will not shine DC wise.

The fact that you have the option to play a support role that can still dish out some good damage at medium AB is good. Being able to shift ethereal to heal up your party sounds loads of fun to me, especially since it is a role that you rarely see taken up in this game.

[Truthiness]

Because of Owl's Insight, whether you receive it from a druid or cast it yourself (it might even be able to be put into an elixir at 24+ CL), the damage you can get from a wis crossbow sniper would outshine that of the dex variant, while allowing for more spells and higher DCs (even on a ranger).

Outside of balance issues, it doesn't make much sense. Zen Archery is basically using intuition to guide your hand, and would likely be associated with monasteries or something of the sort (and RL, it has absolutely nothing to do with crossbows). Crossbow sniper is about using stability and precision or a scope, so the whole idea of Zen Archery + Crossbow Sniper do not go hand in hand in practice.

Zen Archery
Crossbow Sniper

[Kaeldre]

Maybe a lesser version, no 1.5x dmg... Up to 1-1 wis to dmg ratio. For starters anyway, to play it safe.

I must've missed your message, chabordini. Sorry for the late answer.

I could definitely see reason in implementing it as a scaled down version to see how it plans out. I do believe there is cause for concern in terms of balance. Even though my current opinion is that most builds seem like watered down versions of their specialized counterparts. You could either make zen archery solely work with the crossbow sniper feat, and not with its upgraded version. Alternatively, you could just give crossbow sniper a 0,5 multiplier instead of a 1,0 multiplier, giving crossbow sniper master a 1,0 multiplier instead of the 1,5 multiplier.

C14/A8/H8. CL 29, HiPS, full buffs, death attack damage with many shot bug and wis for ab/dmg. Can save the feat needed for practice caster by using xbow that comes with rapid reload.

This is a very well thought out build, that has slightly higher damage numbers than the normal crossbow fighter when making a sneak attack. By my calculations it reaches close to 110 damage per shot, having three shots a round. The run-of-the-mill crossbow sniper deals just short of 100 damage per shot. Thats pretty good. Additionally, it dodges the weakness of low AC and HP by using HIPS. The combination yields an APR of 41/41/36 with manyshot, which is at least 10 AB less than the run-of-the-mill crossbow sniper, as per metaquad4's earlier build post. It makes up for it by being able to make some opponents flat-footed.

Remember that these damage numbers are only possible with short-term buffs. Some lasting a maximum of 2 turns with extend spell. The duration works fine for PvP scenarios, but poorly for PvE. Compared to the crossbow fighter who does 10 less damage per shot at a 9-10 higher AB all of the time, it keeps up in PvP but falls flat in PvE. It off-sets the AB difference to a degree by flat-footing opponents, but this also leaves it vulnerable to improved uncanny dodge. Basically, the build looses 35 damage per shot and their flat-foot bonus against classes like rogues and barbarians. You also run the risk of being dispelled, comparatively.

The build's DC isn't that impressive either, compared to any specialized caster. It can't afford any spell focus feats, regardless if you use a rapid reload crossbow or not. Since you have to invest 13 points into dexterity in order to get manyshot, and at least 4 points into intelligence if you want to max concentration, hide and move silently. Even with this score you wont be able to max UMD for universal scroll usage. You'll land somewhere close to 20 UMD. This is under the assumption you're using a race with a bonus to wisdom. As a result, you'll find yourself with topping of at DC 36 for implosion, and DC 33 or lower for all other spells. Compare that to a caster clerics who can reach 42-44 DC.

I think most people are stuck on the image of current melee/ranged clerics getting a flat buff of 16 or 18 damage. It is easy to forget that their damage output is only possible with divine might, which requires an enormous investment in both strength, charisma and feats. The damage bonus from dedicated divine might uses usually ranges from 16-24 damage. The damage gained from crossbow sniper (master) is 18 if you manage to get 34 wisdom, which most builds wont. It is not feasible to invest in both, so this enormous boost to damage simply isn't true. It will be a matter of choosing between one or the other.

Here's a link to Chad's build: http://nwn2db.com/build/?303769

Here's a link to Metaquad4's build: http://nwn2db.com/build/?228728

Because of Owl's Insight, whether you receive it from a druid or cast it yourself (it might even be able to be put into an elixir at 24+ CL), the damage you can get from a wis crossbow sniper would outshine that of the dex variant, while allowing for more spells and higher DCs (even on a ranger).

Outside of balance issues, it doesn't make much sense. Zen Archery is basically using intuition to guide your hand, and would likely be associated with monasteries or something of the sort (and RL, it has absolutely nothing to do with crossbows). Crossbow sniper is about using stability and precision or a scope, so the whole idea of Zen Archery + Crossbow Sniper do not go hand in hand in practice.

Zen Archery
Crossbow Sniper

It does matter whether you got buffed by a druid or applied the effect yourself. Owl's insight is based on caster levels, meaning that scrolls or potions wont give anything close to the bonus to wisdom you'll get if a druid casts the spell on you (It's the difference of +6 wisdom). Some spells can't be made into elixirs as you say, and I'm quite certain owl's insight is one of them. If not, then it should definitely be added to the prohibited list, else we'll see a flat +3 DC increase for all wisdom based caster classes.

You might still argue that if you get buffed by a druid, you'd be better than the normal dex variant. Well the same can be said for dex variants getting buffed by mages etc.

I strongly disagree with your second argument. I think using a crossbow with zen archery makes perfect sense. First and foremost, as you stated, zen archery is using your intuition to guide your shots. There is nothing that implies that zen archery would be tied to monasteries. Anyone could learn to trust their instincts while making trying to hit their targets, it's merely a different style of archery. Secondly, just because you have an idea of where to shoot in order to hit your target, does not mean that you are an expert at handling the weapon. It still requires a certain amount of skill, which other feats such as crossbow sniper represents. After all, it is explicitly stated in the description of the crossbow sniper feat that it may be due to the addition of a scope or that it is due to learning how to hold the weapon with better stability as you shoot. I would point to the latter option, as it is a different matter entirely to know how to hold your crossbow stable and to know roughly where to aim.

[Endelyon]

I'm not prohibiting another spell from the elixir list, in fact I'm about to open it up pretty soon so that everything of all CLs can be made on it.

[Kaeldre]

I suppose it wont change the relative strength between caster clerics and crossbow clerics in terms of DC, since both will enjoy the +3 DC bonus. It will buff the crossbow clerics AB by 3. With this change it would also buff their damage by 4,5. Making them rival dedicated divine might users in bonus damage.

I'm leaning more towards chambordini's suggestion of implementing this change as a scaled down version to test the waters. Allowing all characters access to a +12 wisdom increase is huge, especially for casters. What do you guys think about that? (EDIT: That meaning chambordini's suggestion)

[Theodore01]

The main balance concern is - that just one stat would grant attack bonus, damage, spell dc/bonus slots. Something like that isn't on the server yet?

[Zethrenx99]

Wisdom makes more sense for a sniper anyways. Wisdom incorporates ones ability to have combat precognition and predictions. The ability to take into account several variables such as wind speed and direction, distance, movement, equipment of the target ect as absolutely nothing to do with agility and finesse. So as to the point of it being a shame if we see more wis snipers than dex snipers i raise you a . . . why?

Needless to say I like the idea, in that zen archery is never used (at least in my 10-11 years of playing here i have never seen some one use it to any sort of effectiveness).

If we want to talk balance and lack there of how about warslingers? 30-40 dmg per hit with 3 man ricochets resulting in around 120-200 dmg per round to 3 creatures? The fastest of any build that could go to xvarts pre 14 and kill mobs in a single round solo that I have ever seen, and they don't even need buffs or rest.

[Steve]

Monk 20 / Assassin 10 with Intuitive Attack and Zen Archery using Shurikens and Fists...and Flurry of Blows...would make my day. How about yours?!?

[The Whistler]

Needless to say I like the idea, in that zen archery is never used (at least in my 10-11 years of playing here i have never seen some one use it to any sort of effectiveness).

cleric/assassin variants can make excellent use of zen archery already. I should know, I play one.

I'm not opposed to opening up crossbow sniper to wis characters for the cost of an additional feat. cleric/druid feat budget is already tight as it is and buying all the feats required would take up their pre-epic resources entirely. making it less of a gimmick and more of an actual build path

[Kaeldre]

The main balance concern is - that just one stat would grant attack bonus, damage, spell dc/bonus slots. Something like that isn't on the server yet?

The strength stat grants bonuses to AB, Dmg, Knockdown (and similar feats) DC as well as providing protection from it and bigby's forceful hand. Those two being some of (if not the) most prevalent disables IG. It does this with the investment of 2 feats, that being knockdown and its improved version. In contrast, wisdom grants the bonuses you mentioned with the investment of 3 feats, that being zen archery and both crossbow sniper feats. Furthermore, to make use of these you have to invest more into the crossbow line of feats. Else you'll be stuck with one attack per round, which isn't great.

Another stat which grants similar bonuses is dexterity. For crossbow users it offers AB, Damage and AC. It also boosts certain skills like hide and move silently. This is also at the cost of 2 feats.

Wisdom makes more sense for a sniper anyways. Wisdom incorporates ones ability to have combat precognition and predictions. The ability to take into account several variables such as wind speed and direction, distance, movement, equipment of the target ect as absolutely nothing to do with agility and finesse. So as to the point of it being a shame if we see more wis snipers than dex snipers i raise you a . . . why?

Needless to say I like the idea, in that zen archery is never used (at least in my 10-11 years of playing here i have never seen some one use it to any sort of effectiveness).

If we want to talk balance and lack there of how about warslingers? 30-40 dmg per hit with 3 man ricochets resulting in around 120-200 dmg per round to 3 creatures? The fastest of any build that could go to xvarts pre 14 and kill mobs in a single round solo that I have ever seen, and they don't even need buffs or rest.

A good point raised. Why disparage some builds over others? I would prefer a healthy balance between the two, if possible. Something we dont seem to have atm, judging by the amount of zen archery characters out there.

Monk 20 / Assassin 10 with Intuitive Attack and Zen Archery using Shurikens and Fists...and Flurry of Blows...would make my day. How about yours?!?

Yeah, thats a cool combo. This is the first non-cleric build we've seen in this thread!

It doesn't reach any crazy values for AB or damage, but it sure as hell has utility hehe.

Needless to say I like the idea, in that zen archery is never used (at least in my 10-11 years of playing here i have never seen some one use it to any sort of effectiveness).

cleric/assassin variants can make excellent use of zen archery already. I should know, I play one.

I'm not opposed to opening up crossbow sniper to wis characters for the cost of an additional feat. cleric/druid feat budget is already tight as it is and buying all the feats required would take up their pre-epic resources entirely. making it less of a gimmick and more of an actual build path

Quite right! You'll be severely feat starved, meaning you'll have to make hard decisions on what you want to specialize in. Do you want to be a DC caster that can shoot decently, or a ranged specialist that can cast decent DC spells. Hard choices are the best choices.

I think the end goal is exactly that, making it a viable choice for players. More choices for the playerbase!

[Truthiness]

I strongly disagree with your second argument. I think using a crossbow with zen archery makes perfect sense. First and foremost, as you stated, zen archery is using your intuition to guide your shots. There is nothing that implies that zen archery would be tied to monasteries. Anyone could learn to trust their instincts while making trying to hit their targets, it's merely a different style of archery. Secondly, just because you have an idea of where to shoot in order to hit your target, does not mean that you are an expert at handling the weapon. It still requires a certain amount of skill, which other feats such as crossbow sniper represents. After all, it is explicitly stated in the description of the crossbow sniper feat that it may be due to the addition of a scope or that it is due to learning how to hold the weapon with better stability as you shoot. I would point to the latter option, as it is a different matter entirely to know how to hold your crossbow stable and to know roughly where to aim.

Wisdom makes more sense for a sniper anyways. Wisdom incorporates ones ability to have combat precognition and predictions. The ability to take into account several variables such as wind speed and direction, distance, movement, equipment of the target ect as absolutely nothing to do with agility and finesse. So as to the point of it being a shame if we see more wis snipers than dex snipers i raise you a . . . why?

Zen archery isn't using one's sight or perception to guide their shots, it's using their intuition (not other things wisdom represents), not conscious effort, not carefully lining up shots with stability and precision, which is what crossbow sniper is about. Importantly, I should point out that dexterity ties into hand-eye coordination, what one would need to line up a careful shot with a crossbow. Sure, they can use their intuition to line up shots with a crossbow, but it doesn't mean they're taking conscious effort to be precise (and thus the bonus damage). Which is why that seeing more wis based crossbow snipers (which we probably would, given it's higher potential power) if this change were to go through would make absolutely no sense, given that the feats don't really work together in practice.

EDIT: In the same way that Intuitive (there's the word intuitive again!) Strike doesn't give monks damage, just AB, Zen Archery would work the same way, they'd still need to work on their other abilities for the damage.

EDIT 2: Clerics can already dish out a decent amount of damage no matter if they go full wis. Divine Power and all their other short-term buffs allow for that. They don't need to be able to dish out decent damage all the time, then some high level damage some of the time, in addition to having nice AC, saves, and spell DCs (along with plenty of spells). You can't have it all.

[Kaeldre]

Zen archery isn't using one's sight or perception to guide their shots, it's using their intuition (not other things wisdom represents), not conscious effort, not carefully lining up shots with stability and precision, which is what crossbow sniper is about. Importantly, I should point out that dexterity ties into hand-eye coordination, what one would need to line up a careful shot with a crossbow. Sure, they can use their intuition to line up shots with a crossbow, but it doesn't mean they're taking conscious effort to be precise (and thus the bonus damage). Which is why that seeing more wis based crossbow snipers (which we probably would, given it's higher potential power) if this change were to go through would make absolutely no sense, given that the feats don't really work together in practice.

So, it seems that we are in agreement that zen archery uses your intuition in order aim more accurately to hit your targets. There is no question about that. We're also in agreement that the crossbow sniper feats aid in stabilizing the weapon whilst shooting. The crux that I have with your reasoning is that it is too one-dimensional. Let me explain.

The point of my earlier post was that there is a difference in how you chose to aim your crossbow and the skills you possess in wielding it. Just because you use your intuition to guide your shots, does not mean that you are exempt from other difficulties in using the weapon. Which your post seems to suggest. For instance, you still have to account for recoil and stability regardless of how you choose to aim your weapon. You still need a certain set of skills, outside the realm of intuition, in order to wield a crossbow effectively. After mastering these skills you might not need concious effort to execute them.

EDIT: In the same way that Intuitive (there's the word intuitive again!) Strike doesn't give monks damage, just AB, Zen Archery would work the same way, they'd still need to work on their other abilities for the damage.

Just like intuitive strike doesn't grant extra damage, neither does zen archery. It is the applied skills in combination with zen archery (or without it) that does. Crossbow sniper should give the same benefit of stabilizing their crossbow regardless if you use your intuition or hand-eye coordination to line up those bolts. It all ties back to my argument that stabilizing the crossbow and aiming are different matters, that together make for great crossbowmanship.

EDIT 2: Clerics can already dish out a decent amount of damage no matter if they go full wis. Divine Power and all their other short-term buffs allow for that. They don't need to be able to dish out decent damage all the time, then some high level damage some of the time, in addition to having nice AC, saves, and spell DCs (along with plenty of spells). You can't have it all.

If a cleric goes full wisdom and uses a crossbow, they wont dish out anyting remotely close to the normal damage numbers crossbow users have. They'll do somehwere around 40-50 damage per shot, compared to the mounting 100 damage that crossbow fighters do per shot. This is fully buffed. They're not varying between decent and high damage. They're moving between low and decent damage for any crossbow standard.

You are also wrong in affirming that they have 'nice AC'. They cap out somewhere around 40 AC. Do you consider that a good value for defence? Remember, using a crossbow means you cannot use a shield. Thats a huge loss of AC just there.

You also state that they have nice saves. Sure their will save is solid. Their fortitude save is decent and their reflex save is bad for starters. They only make up for it by using spells. The same spells can be used by ways of scrolls or elixirs (Superior resistance anyone?).

The thing is that you just wont have it all in the end. You wont be as good of a shot as your fighter crossbow counterparts, you wont be as good of a caster as your DC cleric. In the end you will be a hybrid build, able to do both less well. Something which has been proven time and again throughout this thread.