Weaponmaster Rework

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

I'll start with disclaimer — I am not writing it because I think weaponmaster is too strong/too weak. I'm doing it because weaponmaster is the most terrible class gamedesign wise. Look at the feat progression yourselves:

1: Weapon of Choice
2:
3:
4:
5: Superior Weapon Focus, Increased Multiplier
6:
7: Ki Critical
8:
9:
10:

In other words, it only gives feats on level 5 and 7, while other levels give nothing. How about doing something about it? For example, filling levels 1-4 with some RP feats, such as skill focus (craft weapon) which would add some flavor. At level six, you may add free feat choice which would include only custom combat feats like staggering strike, blinding strike, athkatlan triparite, one weapon etc etc. At levels 8-9, I think it would be nice to add superior weapon focus +2 (which would give +2 ab with favored weapon instead of +1). At level 10, it's obvious WM must include Improved whirlwind attack (in PnP, weaponmaster gives Ki Whirlwind instead on lvl 9 which is close to it). Also, it's a good idea to add flavor feats from other classes (such as Duelist's Enhanced mobility). As an option, it's nice to add Power critical to WM on level 8, but I don't insist if you think it would make the class too powerful.

So the new WM feat progression would look approximately like:

1: Weapon of Choice
2: Skill focus (Craft weapon)
3: Enhanced mobility
4: Superior Weapon Focus +1
5: Increased Multiplier
6: Bonus feat
7: Ki Critical
8: Power critical (Weapon of choice)
9: Superior Weapon Focus +2
10: Improved whirlwind attack

Is this version more powerful than vanilla? You won't feel the difference (maybe a leeeeettle bit). Is it more appealing to play? Of course! Most importantly, it gives reason to progress as weaponmaster past lvl 7. Thoughts and suggestions are welcome.

[Rudolph]

I like it.

[ShineDown]

The vanilla wm does get ki dmg as well and each level it's usable another 1x

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

The vanilla wm does get ki dmg as well and each level it's usable another 1x

I know, I just didn't specify its progression (because, let's say, nobody will pick the last 3 levels only to gain 3 additional ki damage uses). I assumed it remains in the new version I suggested as well with no changes.

[Theodore01]

I like it also.

Maybe grant pcrit. at 2
opportunist at 6
improved whirl. to 8
the bonus feat to 9
and add armed deflection at 10.

[izzul]

sarcasm: and add more undeads area and palemaster 10 mobs that cant be critted?

[Calodan]

Weapon master is one of the most feat intensive classes in this server with little reward to even take it except for a few niche builds. While it is not completely crap giving it some boons for the amount of feats taken seems a plausible idea in my opinion. Though I feel giving them a choice of one ruin feat in the end would be far more in line at the 10th level.

[Bobthehero]

I approve, even if that would force me to rebuild Lotrik a bit.

[The Whistler]

lol no it doesn't need help. opening up ruin options as epic feats at level 10 wouldn't be a bad idea though

[Ithilan]

Weapons Master is a hell of a strong class as it is. Sure its boring comparef to many other PrCs in terms of fluff., but the gain is exceptional for most melee classes. I can get behind adding something more interesting beyond level 7 but not prior to it. Power critical seems in line even if its an amazing feat for a WM, especially since they wouldnt have to pay the toll of the imp. Critical feat. But WMs dont really need to be buffed.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

Top tier weapon master builds require massive feat investment, and are rewarded with low saves, low AC, and high crit reliant damage.

Top tier rogue builds put up similar DPS and ac but also have hips, the possibility of bypassing crit immunity, and rerolling saves as well as more skill points and spare feats.

I don't see why people think it is all that powerful.

Maybe level 10 could add a modifier that improves ki crits allowing them to bypass crit immunity?

[Ithilan]

Rogues dont have hips and though sneak attack is one of the highest damage outputs reliably, they do not reach the same AB numbers at all. They can only reroll mind saves with slippery mind and NEED to bypass sneak immunity or they would hit as hard as a level 2 usually.

WM builds usually stack base damage via IPA and FB, or 12 fighter levels with weapons mastery and epic weapon specialization. The fact you are trying to sell WM as a poor class choice does my head in.

It is a PrC that adds so much to the builds it usually appears in. Comparing it to rogues is not relevant at all imo. lets compare it to shadow dancers or assassins instead, perhaps invisible blade. And yes, you fall short in terms of skill points and have poor saving throw gain, but we have many ways to bypass this with supplement classes or even a simple feat to fix the atrocious will save.

Weapons master is if anything, boring. But not weak.

Edit: Your reliance on crit is oversold here too, where a rogue does no damage without epic precision. A WM usually packs such high base damage its not comparable. I hit undeads for 35+ with a piercing weapon on my WM and im not a FB.

I can think of a handful of builds that can utilize sneak attack damage to great effect as well, that aint rogues at all. But there are no means in the game at all to compensate for ki critical and increased modifier.

WM's always been one of my favorite classes and I can get behind making it more interesting and adding fluff, but the class is very strong as it is.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

"Top tier rogue builds"

Edit: I was trying to refer to rogues as an archetype. Not to be confused with a straight build of 30 rogue levels.

[Ithilan]

"Top tier rogue builds"

Edit: I was trying to refer to rogues as an archetype. Not to be confused with a straight build of 30 rogue levels.

And by that logic, we gotta take FB in to the equation of WM as well, and steadfast determination with potential of classes like AK or similar high will progression classes with ways to fix the shortcomings, because that is what an arche type rogue build does, fix its short comings. Just like a WM would.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

Top tier weapon master builds require massive feat investment, and are rewarded with low saves, low AC, and high crit reliant damage.

Top tier rogue builds put up similar DPS and ac but also have hips, the possibility of bypassing crit immunity, and rerolling saves as well as more skill points and spare feats.

I don't see why people think it is all that powerful.

Maybe level 10 could add a modifier that improves ki crits allowing them to bypass crit immunity?