Animate Dead Nerf

[Akroma666]

*cough* Bear warrior bugs *cough*

[AlwaysSummer Day]

Nobody expects a perfectly balanced system. Just want to see outliers brought closer to the average is all. If class 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 all are similarly capable, but class 8 is useless and 9 is above and beyond, it is easier to buff 8 and Nerf 9 than buff 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and every mob on the server. This comparatively minor amount of work will provide more viable builds and thus more fun. Simply accepting that 8 is useless beyond RP while 9 surpasses it even in RP is a poor compromise.

[c2k]

I'm sure some people remember the time on this server when the content wasn't so heavily modded and what Animate Undead is in the core game. Now if you consider that, this "nerf" still makes the spell better than what you would be originally playing with, so there is no reason to get your pitchforks out over this decision.

[Wyatt]

As I have recently made and started playing a divine necromancer type, I have little experience with the pre-nerf version of Animate Dead. I do, however, like the solution of increasing the duration of the Create Greater Undead. It would seem likely to encourage more use of the higher level summons and help offset the claimed nerf of the lower level Animate Dead spell. Perhaps a compromise is in order?

[Rain]

Create Greater Undead turning into a Minute per level would be amazing actually. Hell if that happened I would go back to my necromancer too! XD

[Valefort]

Create greater undead is a 2 round per level spell that can be extended, lasting for a whole 120 rounds, 12 minutes

[Rain]

Create greater undead is a 2 round per level spell that can be extended, lasting for a whole 120 rounds, 12 minutes

Ok?

And greater Planar Ally, (which is pretty much the conjuration equivalent of it) is 1/min per level. Which can be extended also.

I see no problems yet.

[Valefort]

Ok, if i have to spell it out : 12 minutes is half a rest, that's long enough.

[Wyatt]

I don't think the problem was people not understanding what you meant Val, only that they don't understand or perhaps agree with the inconsistency between Greater Planar Ally lasting min/level and Create Greater Undead lasting 12 sec/level. The condescension in your post, whether intended or not, doesn't help matters either.

An explanation might be more useful. Such as why Create Greater Undead is so much shorter. Is it arbitrary? Is it because the undead summons are so much stronger than the Greater Planar Ally summons? Is it too taxing to create undead at the highest level compared to compelling a deva or archon?

[Valefort]

I replied in such a way because for someone who knows the CGU spell this seemed very disingenuous. The vampire has regen 5, 10 alchemical DR, crit immunity, hits hard and has high AB. Its AC is lower than GPB summons in general though, but its durability and overall power are still quite ahead.

[Laenor]

At level 30, the spell , extended, lasts for 12x2x30 seconds, or a total of 12 minutes.

If you want to use it as a necromancer, you need to memorize 2xthe spell + 2x the buffs... that's a huge investment.
Honestly, make it last 4 rounds per level.

At level 30, extended, that would be 24 minutes, or a full rest cycle.. I'd expect a level 30 to be able to do that.. or make it a feat, I don't know.
It's not like casters are favorized at high level to be honest.

[Sun Arrow]

Nobody expects a perfectly balanced system. Just want to see outliers brought closer to the average is all. If class 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 all are similarly capable, but class 8 is useless and 9 is above and beyond, it is easier to buff 8 and Nerf 9 than buff 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 and every mob on the server. This comparatively minor amount of work will provide more viable builds and thus more fun. Simply accepting that 8 is useless beyond RP while 9 surpasses it even in RP is a poor compromise.

This mentality is what scares me. So what if a classes like the favored soul is a main line battle tank with 10 dr and 10+ regeneration, innate haste, a spell that gives them fighter BAB and a close to unlimited supply of healing and utility spells. You can never balance that against something like a ranger or a rogue.

All we are going to do by cutting the "overpowered" abilities in the game is to destroy already interesting classes and combos.

The great strength of Dungeons and Dragons 3.5e and the BGTSCC server is things have never been balanced, and I think in 10 years the server has struck its own balance that works.

To many good games have destroyed themselves by cutting and cutting until everything interesting in the game turns bland.

Baldur's Gate rocks! lets keep it that way!

Thanks for a great server!

[Blackman D]

I replied in such a way because for someone who knows the CGU spell this seemed very disingenuous. The vampire has regen 5, 10 alchemical DR, crit immunity, hits hard and has high AB. Its AC is lower than GPB summons in general though, but its durability and overall power are still quite ahead.

...and is also kos where others are not

I'm sure some people remember the time on this server when the content wasn't so heavily modded and what Animate Undead is in the core game. Now if you consider that, this "nerf" still makes the spell better than what you would be originally playing with, so there is no reason to get your pitchforks out over this decision.

c2k is out of hiding

and saying its better than the laughable version it was originally isnt sayin much and you know it

[c2k]

My point is that QC/Staff made the initiative to empower most of the core game spells so that they can have a longer shelf life than what the core game allowed. If at some point QC/Staff believe they might of over-tweaked one of these upgrades, it shouldn't come off as "a nerf to make the ability unplayable". Had they made it worse than the core version of the game, than they would obviously be trying to ruin the viability of the spell.

[Rain]

I replied in such a way because for someone who knows the CGU spell this seemed very disingenuous. The vampire has regen 5, 10 alchemical DR, crit immunity, hits hard and has high AB. Its AC is lower than GPB summons in general though, but its durability and overall power are still quite ahead.

If that's your argument here then let's compare some stats and boons (Not counting AB and AC):

Create Greater Undead: Vampire Warlock or Vampire Barbarian or Skeleton Giant or Ghosty Boy

Duration: 2round/per level

Stats: Regen 5, 10 alcemical DR, crit immunity

______________________________

Summon Planar Ally: A large arsenal to choose from.

Duration: 1min/per level

Stats:

Planetar: 5 regen, spell: heal, extra dmg vs evil (almost every enemy in the game)

Hound archon: Aura: Bane, Smite evil (effective against almost every enemy in the game)

Moadic Deva: Aura: Angelic, spell: heal, spell: sunburst,

Astral Deva: Aura: Angelic, spell: heal, turn undead,

Barincha: Spells: Hold person, IGMS, Fire brand, Flame Arrow, Acid Storm,

____________________________________

And that's only a small list of what boons you get from the Planar allies. In short you get WAY more options with planar ally, more versatility, more boons, longer duration, and to top if off CAN SUMMON 2 (1 is permanent) + an army spell + animal companion + Hellfire Warlock summon (gimp build) for a total of 7 summons behind you. Necromancers get 4 tops with much less everything not to mention are all effected by heal spells and mass heals spells which means they don't last ANYTHING in a real situation.

At level 30, the spell , extended, lasts for 12x2x30 seconds, or a total of 12 minutes.

If you want to use it as a necromancer, you need to memorize 2xthe spell + 2x the buffs... that's a huge investment.
Honestly, make it last 4 rounds per level.

At level 30, extended, that would be 24 minutes, or a full rest cycle.. I'd expect a level 30 to be able to do that.. or make it a feat, I don't know.
It's not like casters are favorized at high level to be honest.

Add in all these points to my points above.

EDIT: Hmm odd how all the strong summons from planar ally are good or lawful aligned too. . .