DC casters: Sorcerer/Bard and Divine Spellpower

[Kobamw]

Hello everyone,

I am currently thinking about 2 new character concepts and wanted to pick the brains of the builders out there.

First is a DC-focused Sorcerer/Blood Magus/Archmage where I consider to add Bard. I understand that Practiced Spellcaster bug is fixed now. Therefore, to max out the DC I plan to go for:
- 9 levels of Blood Magus (or less) for a net of +2 CL which brings total CL to 32 for a +4 DC epic bonus
- 6 8 levels of Archmage (or more) for +3 CL and consequently another +1 epic DC bonus (+5 in total)
- 3 spell focus feats (+3 DC)
- Spellcasting prodigy (+1 DC)
- Ability bonus at +12 (+10 natural + spell buff)

That gives me a DC of 31+spell level. Now, if I add 4 levels of Bard with Practiced Spellcaster and Curse Song I can lower the opponents will and fortitude saves by 1. This would results in effective DC of 32+spell level. However, to squeeze in all the feats on a Sorcerer build I would need to switch race from e.g. Aasimar to Human (for extra feat). So the Curse Song benefit would be nullified by lower Charisma. I know I can eliminate this problem by going Wizard route (bonus feats), but Sorcerer fits my build so much more.

The questions therefore are:

• Did I get this trade off right, or maybe it is possible to somehow get the Curse Song without ability decrease on a Sorcerer build?

• Is it possible to squeeze more DC on such a Sorcerer build without Red Wizard or Shadow Adept?

Second build is a divine DC caster. I’m experimenting with Divine Spellpower and I’m not sure how to maximise its usefulness. There are many feats that improve it but I’m unsure which are justified to take. The build will be full CL, with 2 Spellpower feats from Hierophant, all 3 Spell Focus feats, but without Sun Domain (no room for that for RP reasons). The idea is to add another +3 CL from Divine Spellpower. The feat provides variable CL bonus based on a Charisma check. Since this is a divine caster I pump Wisdom and have Charisma at +4 (+2 natural + spell buff). To have +3 CL I need to roll at least 19 modified result or 15 on d20 (30% chance).

Now, the questions are:

• Mastery of Energy (Hierophant) – gives a flat +4 bonus to the roll giving 50% chance of +3 CL. This seems like a no brainer, right?

• Advanced Divine Spellpower – protects negative CL adjustment but with Mastery of Energy it’s only 5% risk. In my testing (having both MoE and ADS as well as Empower Turning) I actually never even rolled zero adjustment (but see point 3 below)… Additionally it allows a CL bonus above +4. However, to be helpful I would need +5 CL (after taking 3rd spellpower feat from Hierophant) or +6 CL. There’s 20% or 5% chance of doing that, respectively (but also see point 3 below). So the benefits of this feat seem to be very low, right?

• Empower Turning – the description indicates it should not affect the Turning Check. However, in my testing I noticed that my rolls improved. On the other hand they never got out of scale (i.e., were not higher than 28). Does anyone have experience with that? If it contributes to Turning Check, then on a roll of 20 you could go to 30

• Improved Turning – does it contribute to Turning Check of Divine Spellpower. I was not even able to test this feat… Does it just give +1 flat bonus; or nothing at all?

I would greatly appreciate your help. I have close to zero experience with casters, but I’m finding them very fun to play and very versatile in terms of RP.

[wurdpass]

I don't think that your curse song idea is very good because of action economy - you spend a round to decrease saves by 1, aka increasing your chances by 5%.

But if you just cast the same spell twice, unless they had a extremely high (95%/100%) chance of passing already you will have significantly more than a 5% increase in chance of succeeding.

Some people would use Blackguard for what you are trying to accomplish for the -2 save aura, and if you want to be a real outlaw you could try Orc War Drummer as well. These I think are your main "addition by subtraction" (of the other player) options for better DCs.

Also being a gnome is a nice increase in Illusion DCs

[Deathgrowl]

High Arcana: Spell Power 3 requires archmage 8. So you know.

[Kobamw]

High Arcana: Spell Power 3 requires archmage 8. So you know.

Good point! I edited my initial post. Fortunately there's a lot room to squeeze that in.

I don't think that your curse song idea is very good because of action economy - you spend a round to decrease saves by 1, aka increasing your chances by 5%.

Also great point. In all this tinkering I forgot about how Curse Song works in practice. Your right that timing makes this trade-off a rather poor one.

Some people would use Blackguard for what you are trying to accomplish for the -2 save aura, and if you want to be a real outlaw you could try Orc War Drummer as well. These I think are your main "addition by subtraction" (of the other player) options for better DCs.

Also being a gnome is a nice increase in Illusion DCs

Blackguard could work, but it requires 2 feats. It would be easier with Wizard (I guess it’s always easier with Wizard…).

Gnomes and Orcs – these do not fit well into my build, unfortunately.

[AlfarinIcebreaker]

I just can't see a Sorcerer without a splash of Paladin or Blackguard. You just have to use that charisma for synergy, and these give bonus to saves, divine shield and in case of BG -2 saves debuff.

[Kobamw]

I am well known for purposefully building underpowered PCs However, I also learnedd that if I don't optimize just a little bit it is very hard to play. Here I'm going into DC enchanter, the rest is irrelevant to me. The RP idea is that people just cannot refuse this PC. That's what previously drawn me to the Bard in the build. I understand synergy and Blackuard's saves penalty tempts me really hard. At the same time I kinda wouldn't like this build to become also a full-plate divine-might & shield armored caster with Autostill.

[Nemni]

Did you consider https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Dragon_Disciple ?
The bonus Cha helps your DCs and it has different defensive abilities than mixing in BG/paladin. Also costs far less than going for Blackguard.

[Kobamw]

That would be an interesting trade off - for a Sorcerer build there are essentially no requirements and it's +1 DC on spells. However, I wonder how scales on the face and attacking with bite and claw would combine with playing trustworthy and/or a charmer