Critique a Gish

[jeminizero]

Human: 3 Man At Arms / 7 Sorcerer / 10 Eldritch Knight / 10 ASoCK

BAB: 3 + 3 + 10 + 5 = 21
Sorcerer CL: 0 + 7 + 9 + 10 = 26 (+4 Practiced Spellcaster)

Scores
Str 14 + 6 Iron Body
Dex 14
Con 14 + 6 Iron Body
Int 14
Wis 08
Cha 15 + 7 Level Up + 2 Great Cha + 4 Eagle Splendour = 28

Feats
Human Bonus: Able Learner
1: Luck of Heroes
3: Still Spell
6: Practiced Spellcaster Sorcerer
9: Empower Spell (ASoCK req)
12: Skill Focus Spellcraft (ASoCK req)
15: Extend Spell
18: Tower Shield Proficiency
21: Autostill 0-3
23: Autostill 4-6
25: Autostill 7-9
27: Great Cha
29: Great Cha

Spells
Level 1: Shield, Grease, Reduce Person, Ray of Enfeeblement, Lesser Orb of Sound
Level 2: Invisibility, Blindsight, Eagle Splendour, Mirror Image, Deflection
Level 3: Improved Mage Armor, Haste, Displacement, Flame Arrow
Level 4: Assay Resistance, Black Tentacles, Enervation, Minor Spell Extension
Level 5: Bigby 5, Teleport, Lesser Spell Mantle, Firebrand
Level 6: IGMS, Bigby 6, Greater Heroism
Level 7: Shadow Shield, Energy Immunity, Ethereal Jaunt
Level 8: Mind Blank, Premonition, Iron Body
Level 9: Mord's Disjunction, Simulacrum, Bigby 9

AC
10 Base
1 Luck of Heroes
3 Tumble
8 Mithral Fullplate
3 Max Dex (14 Dex + 2 Reduce Person)
2 Heavy Shield
+1 Man At Arms Shield Block
=28

6 IMA
5 Spiderskin
4 Shield
1 Reduce Person
+4 Deflection
+4 Dodge
=52 (+2 if using tower shield, +11 while using Deflection)

AB
21 BAB
+3 Str (14 Str + 2 Item)
+4 Greater Heroism
+4 Magic Weapon
= 32 (-2 if using Tower Shield, +2 while using Iron Body)

Notes
*This build could really use a Cleric/Favored Soul buddy for Death Ward and Freedom of Movement (to negate Iron Body and Reduce Person penalties) as well as Greater Magic Weapon. Otherwise it has to spend a small fortune on Wands.
*The plan here was to combine Deflection with Minor Spell Extension to make it last rounds/level. Unfortunately, this would also cause other low level buffs to expire (Shield, Reduce Person, Blindsight, Eagle Splendour, Improved Mage Armor).

Comments and suggestions welcome

[chad878262]

For a melee gish without HiPS or Expose Weakness I think you will find your attack bonus lacking. Even if you have Greater Heroism and use potions of Aid/Bless liberally you won't reach over 40 AB. On top of this you are using a Tower Shield which would have a -2 penalty to your AB so the +1 AB from M@A Challenges aren't going to help you.

Depending on Alignment (No Neutral Alignments) you might switch out Arcane Scholar to instead take Dragon Disciple (though it is not full caster progression). In addition, for your armor/weapons feats you could consider Fighter (in order to clear up the lack of feats), Dragon Slayer or even Anointed Knight (or Warrior of Darkness, depending on Good or Evil). Note that DS and AK require +5 BAB so you might have to 'waste' a feat on Martial Weapons, but since you would 'save' a feat required for Tower Shields that might be ok...

Examples:

S7/EK10/DS3/DD10 - BAB is still 21, but you get free STR, CHA, CON, INT, and Natural Armor bonuses. Caster Level 29.

S6/EK10/AK4/AS10 - BAB is 22, CL is 29. need Iron Will for AK, but you get Tower Shields for free as well as several other benefits.

S6/P4/EK10/AS10 - BAB 22/CL 29. Requires Lawful Good and would get some very nice synergy with Dragon Disciple (but would cost more CL). However, would get a lot of miles out of your CHA...

End of the day, the main issue is your stat split. If you are building a sword and board gish then pumping Charisma is a detriment. You need more STR and should be trying to reach ~45 attack bonus (with the minimum being 40 unless you have expose weakness or HiPS). The class splits I have just posted as some other examples that are doing something similar to your idea, but in reality your largest issue is with your stats.

[Steve]

The posted build could 50% manage a successful Tenser's Transformation casting, after Iron Body, and thus add +9 to the AB (for 29 rounds / just under 3 minutes). One could manage just-under-6 minutes for both, if used as Extended.

Maybe better to drop Iron Body spell altogether? I would also suggest dropping a Shield altogether, going 2-handed and take up the One Weapon feat. Then, utilizing Mirrors, Displacement, Deez', Shadow Shield and Premonition with Tenser's Transformation, your Gish is pretty much indestructible.

EDIT: I know my suggestions also make it questionable about even having MaA in the build. I'd argue that MaA is best when taken at least until Level 11 to see the best benefits. Thus, taking Cleric 3 could net you much better Feats, or even Bard 3, which would unlock some Skills and give you a constant +1 AB/DMG, unlike the MaA which has to be clicked and has a Save.

[jeminizero]

For a melee gish without HiPS or Expose Weakness I think you will find your attack bonus lacking. Even if you have Greater Heroism and use potions of Aid/Bless liberally you won't reach over 40 AB.

Out of curiosity, why is 40 AB the target number?

On top of this you are using a Tower Shield which would have a -2 penalty to your AB so the +1 AB from M@A Challenges aren't going to help you.

My plan was to only pull out the tower shield if needed, but I get the idea.

S7/EK10/DS3/DD10 - BAB is still 21, but you get free STR, CHA, CON, INT, and Natural Armor bonuses. Caster Level 29.

Sadly, the wiki says DD cannot multiclass with DS.

End of the day, the main issue is your stat split. If you are building a sword and board gish then pumping Charisma is a detriment. You need more STR and should be trying to reach ~45 attack bonus (with the minimum being 40 unless you have expose weakness or HiPS). The class splits I have just posted as some other examples that are doing something similar to your idea, but in reality your largest issue is with your stats.

I was hoping to have sufficiently high Cha for Flame Arrow/Firebrand early on, and Bigby's later on.

The posted build could 50% manage a successful Tenser's Transformation casting, after Iron Body, and thus add +9 to the AB (for 29 rounds / just under 3 minutes). One could manage just-under-6 minutes for both, if used as Extended.

The plan was to use Still Spell and later on autostill to be able to cast in Armor and Iron Body. I dearly wish I could squeeze in Tenser's but L6 is already packed with several 'must-haves': Greater Heroism, Bigby 6, IGMS

EDIT: I know my suggestions also make it questionable about even having MaA in the build. I'd argue that MaA is best when taken at least until Level 11 to see the best benefits. Thus, taking Cleric 3 could net you much better Feats, or even Bard 3, which would unlock some Skills and give you a constant +1 AB/DMG, unlike the MaA which has to be clicked and has a Save.

I'm trying to avoid Cleric/Paladin/Blackguard for RP reasons.

[chad878262]

Out of curiosity, why is 40 AB the target number?

Because at level 30, 40 AB will allow you to be confident you will land at least 2 and often 3 of your 5 APR (3, 4 hits landed with haste). Dropping below that will more and more push you to less attacks landed each round which will make PvE feel like an awfully unpleasant grind. As a gish you can afford to cast the occasional blast, sure, but your primary damage will come from weapon and clouds if you want to be 'economical' (i.e. don't want to stop and rest every 20 minutes and then spend a couple more reapplying your buffs).

My plan was to only pull out the tower shield if needed, but I get the idea.

If that is the case why take tower shield at all? Grab Combat Expertise if it is for 'as needed' use.

Sadly, the wiki says DD cannot multiclass with DS.

Oops, haven't played in several months...getting rusty already! Sorry about that! Still you could take Dragon Disciple with Anointed Knight or Warrior of Darkness or you could take Dragon Slayer with Arcane Scholar.

I was hoping to have sufficiently high Cha for Flame Arrow/Firebrand early on, and Bigby's later on.

If you don't give full focus on DCs they won't be good enough so trying to go 'middle of the road' is a mistake. As stated above, I recommend you keep your focus on being a fighter/mage who buffs up and hits stuff with his sword... Occasionally toss flame arrow/bigby for flavor, but to be honest you'll get more mileage out of grease, cloud of bewilderment, wall of fire, cloudkill, acid cloud and incendiary cloud. Cloud spells are the best friend of any gish! Also Cloud spells are the best friend of any arcane caster... As a sorc you'll have to pick and choose, but I think in the long run you'll find clouds well worth a few of your slots.

The plan was to use Still Spell and later on autostill to be able to cast in Armor and Iron Body. I dearly wish I could squeeze in Tenser's but L6 is already packed with several 'must-haves': Greater Heroism, Bigby 6, IGMS

I think you will find grease (level 1) more useful than Bigby 6... IGMS sure it's flashy, but meh it's only at it's ultimate *power* with exactly two targets... otherwise you have better options. IMO it's best not to take spells that have limited or edge case usefulness. I don't know that I would take either Bigby 6 or IGMS on a Sorc... there are simply far more commonly useful spells at that level and the effects you are looking to cause can be had at lower level with more effective results.

I'm trying to avoid Cleric/Paladin/Blackguard for RP reasons.

Fair enough, but I would say Fighter offers more than Man at Arms for what you are trying to do... Steve's idea of a Bard 3 dip has merit as well though you do have to consider that unless you make some other build changes your BAB will dip below 21 (4 APR instead of 5). All things to consider, I think based on your comments you might be best served with a S6/AK4/EK10/DD10 build (AK can also be WoD of course) which will have a caster level of 26.... On the low end, but not so low as to be the end of the world. Of course if you are dead set on Arcane Scholar you can stick with that and will have a caster level of 29. Finally, you might consider a S10/EK10/DS10 build which would have CL29 and BAB 25, which would solve quite a few of your issues. Could even add in Blood Magus 4 fairly easily since you don't get anything from Sorc 7-10... Other 4 level dips are also out there to be considered as well such as PaleMaster, but I'll let you consider the feedback Steve and I already gave rather than inundating you with my ideas any further.

[Bobthehero]

The MaA shout that gives you more dmg and AB has no save, your single Target debuff will have an entirely ignorable DC at higher level and you'll miss out on the AoE one that can also fear a target with your single target shout

[jeminizero]

As a gish you can afford to cast the occasional blast, sure, but your primary damage will come from weapon and clouds if you want to be 'economical' (i.e. don't want to stop and rest every 20 minutes and then spend a couple more reapplying your buffs).

How would clouds work? It seems to me that even minimal energy resistance would take away lot of the damage of Acid Fog and Incendiary Cloud. Cloudkill has the problem that nothing less than Deathward/Stone or Iron Body will protect you, and it is based off poison which plenty of creatures are immune to.

[chad878262]

How would clouds work? It seems to me that even minimal energy resistance would take away lot of the damage of Acid Fog and Incendiary Cloud. Cloudkill has the problem that nothing less than Deathward/Stone or Iron Body will protect you, and it is based off poison which plenty of creatures are immune to.

Clouds do take some practice at utilizing, though to be clear deathward won't protect you from poison anymore... Stone/Iron Body will or Neutralize Poison. In my experience Cloudkill is plenty useful in PvE including against some bosses. Acid Cloud has plenty of use as well as does Wall of Fire... I would only use Incendiary Cloud against enemies with spell resistance I had trouble defeating... Different Clouds have different uses depending on the situation, but almost all of them ARE useful in PvE... As to energy resistance, clouds last for 15 rounds at CL30 (some last longer) so they will eat through spell energy resistance (besides immunity) quickly... Even so, few enemies are resistant to multiple energy types, but sure, there are some (pit fiend and balor come to mind) where these clouds may prove ineffective. The trick to being a spellcaster is to have a diverse bag of tricks so if one isn't working you can move on to another.