Surfacefolk to Underdark Relations

[Mallore]

Second solution. Eli player guild hall. Farm up the gold. Build a guild hall. Just make it an awesome out door glen with woods and a stream. A statue. Some logs maybe to sit on. Bon Fire to dance around. ...

It’s a guild hall so it can really go anywhere. Have an upperdark entrance. Boom.

Go through the entrance and yuh are in your very own personal surface tile. Leave the tile your back in the upperdark. This breaks none of our server rules with in reason.

You can lock it or allow anyone to walk into it. You can rp to your hearts joy. Further. As the moon dancers glens are secretive this single entrance tile simulates that experience and part of lore.

In truth. You get much of the lore accurately here.

[cosmic ray]

Second solution. Eli player guild hall. Farm up the gold. Build a guild hall. Just make it an awesome out door glen with woods and a stream. A statue. Some logs maybe to sit on. Bon Fire to dance around. ...

It’s a guild hall so it can really go anywhere. Have an upperdark entrance. Boom.

Go through the entrance and yuh are in your very own personal surface tile. Leave the tile your back in the upperdark. This breaks none of our server rules with in reason.

You can lock it or allow anyone to walk into it. You can rp to your hearts joy. Further. As the moon dancers glens are secretive this single entrance tile simulates that experience and part of lore.

In truth. You get much of the lore accurately here.

The Circle of Song submitted an application for a surface guild hall two years ago, I think it was. Computer said no.

There are enough people amongst the staff who hold surface drow RP in contempt to continually block this sort of RP through several means. They don't admit it on the open forums because doing so doesn't sit well with the DM "badge", but it's true.

[Ghost]

There are enough people amongst the staff who hold surface drow RP in contempt to continually block this sort of RP through several means. They don't admit it on the open forums because doing so doesn't sit well with the DM "badge", but it's true.

I can tell you straight up that the DM staff has no contempt for surface drow RP.

[cosmic ray]

Maybe a synonym of that describes the feeling better.

Joking aside, you can say that again, and I can repeat what I said too, and, naturally, it will be "he said she said" kind of stuff, but I know what I'm talking about and you do too.

[Mallore]

Second solution. Eli player guild hall. Farm up the gold. Build a guild hall. Just make it an awesome out door glen with woods and a stream. A statue. Some logs maybe to sit on. Bon Fire to dance around. ...

It’s a guild hall so it can really go anywhere. Have an upperdark entrance. Boom.

Go through the entrance and yuh are in your very own personal surface tile. Leave the tile your back in the upperdark. This breaks none of our server rules with in reason.

You can lock it or allow anyone to walk into it. You can rp to your hearts joy. Further. As the moon dancers glens are secretive this single entrance tile simulates that experience and part of lore.

In truth. You get much of the lore accurately here.

The Circle of Song submitted an application for a surface guild hall two years ago, I think it was. Computer said no.

There are enough people amongst the staff who hold surface drow RP in contempt to continually block this sort of RP through several means. They don't admit it on the open forums because doing so doesn't sit well with the DM "badge", but it's true.

Mmm,

First what I am suggesting isn’t a surface guild, this wording makes it even sound like you are trying to force RP or your view on the server. What you will be doing is requesting a guild hall and that is all. It follows all the normal rules as its entrance and exit are in the upperdark. What the guild hall is made of is a surface tile (or clever made sim due to server space?). This does not make you a surface guild, you are still an underdark guild and follow all the normal rules.

This would allow you to do all the Eli rp that is sought after, wanted and confirms with all lore and server rules with in reason. Re-read, what and how I worded my suggestion as that in my view is the best way to get it done. This is a compromise that gets you basically everything you want and yet follows the server rules with in reason.

On the topic of DMs. I can’t speak for all of them, don’t know all of them anymore. However, I do know DM Ghost who you comment towards later. DM Ghost and I go way back, atleast 3 years. He and I use to fight like cats and dogs and we both always thought we where right. Let me say this about him. I think he is balanced and level towards player causes and can have creativity in helping among my many thoughts about him. With that said, I believe he would make you a strong ally on the dm team in completing a goal for a guild hall.

What I suggest is working with someone like DM Ghost instead of debating if the “Team” is against your group or not. Basically please don’t make enemies where friends could be had.

I really believe you can get a guild hall and it be all you wanted!

[cosmic ray]

I was talkimg to DM Ghost, but not about DM Ghost, if that's what it looked like.

Regarding the guild hall, what you describe is the compromise that some in the guild would be willing to accept. However, I think, and I am mot alone in this, that a guild hall is only a secondary issue, as I don't believe one needs a guild hall to roleplay one's character. A much more harmful factor is the current OOC rules keeping underdarkers from fully using the surface areas that would make sense IC and surfacers from doing the same in the Underdark. That does stifle roleplay.

[Mallore]

I understand but this what compromise can look like and of you all try it. Maybe it will be enough ? Better to start common ground yeah?

[Zymth]

I was talkimg to DM Ghost, but not about DM Ghost, if that's what it looked like.

Regarding the guild hall, what you describe is the compromise that some in the guild would be willing to accept. However, I think, and I am mot alone in this, that a guild hall is only a secondary issue, as I don't believe one needs a guild hall to roleplay one's character. A much more harmful factor is the current OOC rules keeping underdarkers from fully using the surface areas that would make sense IC and surfacers from doing the same in the Underdark. That does stifle roleplay.

The mother of all ironies is that this policy actually stifles roleplay because surfacers and underdarkers never bump into eachother, because there are virtually no common areas that they have an incentive to visit, so this policy basically circumvents what I would argue is one of the best parts of having both worlds, which is the roleplay conflict that unfolds when the two worlds collide.

edit: btw, I just went back and looked, and it was seven years ago that I first brought up the issues with ranger in the underdark (No tree stride, we have to take a terrible prestige class to use our abilities and even then half of them don't work.) This isn't just a small woopsie, this is a core class not working properly. 7 years. Let that sink in. There just isn't much concern for the health of the underdark here.

[Max Hatchet]

it was seven years ago that I first brought up the issues with ranger in the underdark (No tree stride, we have to take a terrible prestige class to use our abilities and even then half of them don't work.) This isn't just a small woopsie, this is a core class not working properly. 7 years. Let that sink in. There just isn't much concern for the health of the underdark here.

Why do you think its cool to demand people work on things that the vanilla game has not implemented properly? Every piece of work done here by volunteers we should be grateful for. This is not some product we have been sold in a shop that doesn't work properly. Please think of how you sound when you talk like this.

I am also an Underdark player and i think the amount of work people have spent (using their free time) to create the Underdark here is incredible.

Attitudes like this discourage people from working on the server rather than encourage them.

[Steve]

Sorry, but it just a fallacy that in the current timeline of the BGTSCC Server, it would be at all common, to have Drow on the Surface, and for Surfacers and Drow to have opportunities to RP (conflict or peace/love/kittenspuppiesunicorns).

Even if the logic could be stretched, Drow Ellistreans wouldn’t even be anywhere near Baldur’s Gate. It is the namesake of the Server. Does it not make sense to all, thus, the majority of focus and resources, IC & OOC, will go towards Baldur’s Gate?!?

If any Player is going to state “the Rules do not allow me to RP and are a form of oppression” in exact or similar words, then I’ll just say it: consider BGTSCC not the Server for you.

Players make the Fun happen, boys and girls. If you’re not promoting that, for yourself AND Staff, didn’t expect shit. Surely, their are limits in regard to what Players can “make,” but I’ll tell you right now, it is far too often that the Individual creates far worse limits on themselves, in their mode of thinking.

Right now, this very minute, anyone can bring their Drow to the Surface and dance in the disco light. You just can’t grind XP. Experience Points and Role-play are only the smallest bit reliant upon each other. To say otherwise is just subjective, and a fallacy.

And I gotta day, Mallory suggested a frickin fantastic idea about a UD attached Surface non Surface Area, to allow for Ellistrean worship RP. I’d add to that that the better idea perhaps is to make it an open Area to all UD dwellers, which would also allow for intra-Drow-conflict RP around Deity worship. And prevents Surfacers from mucking it up.

Look, I’m no Staff apologist, but seriously, if you only knew what I know from being on Staff, Drow PCs on the Surface was never a “problem” nor was their some campaign against it. WHAT WAS A PROBLEM and has cause the creation of all these limits/Rules, is the behavior of Players, both the UD PCs and the Surface PCs, that just cannot get along nor keep things IC and IG.

So lastly, I’ll say this: I’ll bet you a 50 dollar donation to the Server that if you lead by good example, toward your goal, compromise with what resources are available, and try and be (do-me) friendly for a change, you can get what you want (to a degree! Needs are fulfilled on a scale of Satisfaction, NOT total wish fulfillment).

Peace. Long live the UD. And long live those children that cry when their mothers whisper the tale of the Dark Elf....

[Zymth]

Why do you think its cool to demand people work on things that the vanilla game has not implemented properly? Every piece of work done here by volunteers we should be grateful for. This is not some product we have been sold in a shop that doesn't work properly. Please think of how you sound when you talk like this.

Believe me, I don't think it's cool at all to have to wait nearly a decade for improvements to the underdark environment. I don't know in what world waiting 7 years is me being too unreasonable and too demanding.

[Planehopper]

Let's get back on topic. Your misunderstanding of developer time, or impatience with development strategy, have nothing to do with Surface-Underdark relations.

[Zanniej]

Why do you think its cool to demand people work on things that the vanilla game has not implemented properly? Every piece of work done here by volunteers we should be grateful for. This is not some product we have been sold in a shop that doesn't work properly. Please think of how you sound when you talk like this.

Believe me, I don't think it's cool at all to have to wait nearly a decade for improvements to the underdark environment. I don't know in what world waiting 7 years is me being too unreasonable and too demanding.

We are working with volunteers. You are welcome to make the improvements to the underdark environment yourself. We are dependant on people willing to do such changes.

So, to put it directly: Nobody has any power or reason to demand anything, as nobody is getting paid for any of the work they're doing.

I am very grateful for this entire server, and all the voluntary work that has been done to create what exists now. It is awesome enough to have people discussing a 13(!) year old game!!


But, as Planehopper rightly points out, let's get this back on topic.

[Zymth]

Let's get back on topic. Your misunderstanding of developer time, or impatience with development strategy, have nothing to do with Surface-Underdark relations.

Maybe one of the reasons all the problems in this thread persist is that whenever users try to push for a change they get told they're ignorant and impatient. 7 years is not impatient and the specific issue I raised is a microcosm of the larger issue which has been emphasized multiple times in this thread, which is that problems that primarily affect underdark players get little or no attention.

[Mallore]

@zymth

Over 7 years you could have learned to code and fixed the issue yourself or developed the areas. People do not work for anyone in this game. It’s voluntary.

There have been massive improvements to the UD over seven years. The upperdark for one which was a big project and then the rules put in for the upperdark that make it the perfect playground for both groups! ((Please turn on rock run map though. )). We also added a Drow only PRC that is pretty fun to play!

In this thread suggestions have been made to help address the issues. I made two myself. My observation however told me that people just wanted to fight and argue their point of view then even talk about rational changes. Compromise or anything to that nature.

It does feel through out this tread some people just want to argue for or against and when any positive solution is presented it is ignored. What ever side anyone is on this thread it seams to be a pattern. We got some real suggestions so I hope all can focus on that now.