Wanna break the Gray Orc?

[Tekill]

I have been having fun playing an atypical Gray Orc on the surface. It has been a challenge dealing with some IC and OOC situations. But by playing with a different set of standards and expectations, in terms of other players behavior, has balanced out. Thick skin and all that...

The challenge RPing an utterly hated race suprisingly has been a bit exciting.

Atypical, meaning, non CE Gruumsh worshipping, brute warmonger.
Interestingly enough, I have run into a couple other seemingly atypical Gray Orcs in tha last couple days. This got me thinking. So I am sending out some feelers.

Is anyone interested in RPing a group of atypical Gray Orcs?

I know my last attempt, at forming a faction did not go so well. The big take away from my last faction was to not name it "The Murder Hobos".
Lesson Learned.

If there is interest I think it will be super easy, to organize. I am really just proposing a support group for misfit Gray Orcs.

Let me know if you are interested and we will meet up in game.

[Steve]

What about calling it “The Atypical Gray Orcs (aka the Emo-Murder Hobos)?”



J/k

Gray Orcs have feelings too, and are often just misunderstood, in context.

What I always wondered about is: would TYPICAL Gray Orcs consider atypical Gray Orcs an abomination to the Race, the Culture or the Tribe? Is a non-CE Gray Orc an outcast by nature, hunted by both Kind and...unKind?!?

It’s tough being Gray.

[Zanniej]

Could you define your intention with atypical. Are you aiming at ... "good" ... gray orcs? Or just not standard roaming barbarian tribes, attacking everything that moves?

[Ewe]

I don't like Alt Gray Orcs, or AGOs, I feel it ruins immersion by purposefully trying to subvert the setting for shock value and/or purposes of trying to conduct some kind of social experiment. More often than not people forget that racism in Forgotten Realms is absolute, and this just leads us into some sort of utopia where all races harmonize... which is no longer FR.

In conclusion your title "Wanna break the Gray Orc" feels like we're trying to break the very foundations of the game itself.

[edmaster]

Atypical race roles aren't common but do stand out in Forgotten Realms quite a bit, my favorite being an Orog name Shield of Innocence who became a Paladin of Torm, went through lots of trial and tribulations from those around in from the War in Tethyr book.

[Zanniej]

I personally feel like you're more special on BGTSCC if you play a "typical" character
But that could just be me.

But I do wonder about the atypical gray orc. I mean, atypical doesn't have to mean that we're talking big huggy bear gray orcs. It could just mean that, while still evil, they're not the common Gruumsh tribesmen.

I for one, made a loner gray orc once. Certainly still evil. Just not the chaotic Gruumsh evil.

[Razzaband]

I've been very interested in forming such a group Tekill if you wish to do so. However I am already max level with mine so it would be for RP on my end and less adventuring together.

[deserk]

I don't even like that Grey Orcs are a playable race in BGSTCC, and I always think it is a eye-sore confronting such characters or hearing other PCs speak up about "Grey Orcs" IC, as it would never happen in any Forgotten Realms novel, sourcebook, or video game dealing with Baldur's Gate or the Sword Coast. It goes against the lore of this setting, as Grey Orcs exist only in Eastern Faerun, the complete other side of the continent. There are plenty of races in other parts of Faerun that we don't have playable here, so why is the Grey Orc playable? I would not necessarily say they should not ever appear here as rare NPCs, but they should not be made a playable race here, and they should absolutely not be playable over Mountain Orcs. I would much prefer to see such PCs changed for Mountain Orcs, who are immensely more relevant in this part of the world. Now I'm not sure that the staff will do anything about this, since this has been brought up before and there have been many years since that decision was made by many previous incarnations of the staff, but I'm still going to have to speak up while the staff would maintain that this is a Baldur's Gate Forgotten Realms server. I think efforts made to represent this setting more authentically always makes things better, especially as a roleplay environment. And in many fronts I think BGTSCC has done this in other areas over the years (I certainly enjoy this PW more now than then), so it would be great if this could at last happen, to rectify an error made years ago. And it is also quite puzzling why Grey Orcs were enabled over Yuan-ti Purebloods (who actually have some lore precedence in this setting).

[Tekill]

What I always wondered about is: would TYPICAL Gray Orcs consider atypical Gray Orcs an abomination to the Race, the Culture or the Tribe? Is a non-CE Gray Orc an outcast by nature, hunted by both Kind and...unKind?!?
It’s tough being Gray.

I think if the Gray Orc tribes caught one of their own, say worshiping someone other then Gruumsh, they would gleefully hunt that orc. Then again Im sure an orc tribe would gleefully hunt one of their own for just about any reason.

Could you define your intention with atypical. Are you aiming at ... "good" ... gray orcs? Or just not standard roaming barbarian tribes, attacking everything that moves?

Non overtly evil. To try to pass as 'acceptably decent' in the eyes of the judging pink skins. So that the pitch forks don't come out.
I would like to RP it as spreading the word to other Gray Orc pilgrims out there that there is a possible refuge along the sword coast.
It would be a way for us Gray Orc to find some semblance of a home. To then attempt to gains some acceptance or tolerance. Even if its just four of us...grouping up and helping with our own individual characters goals etc.
I do not want to define it more than that as I want to just see what happens.

But I do wonder about the atypical gray orc. I mean, atypical doesn't have to mean that we're talking big huggy bear gray orcs. It could just mean that, while still evil, they're not the common Gruumsh tribesmen.
I for one, made a loner gray orc once. Certainly still evil. Just not the chaotic Gruumsh evil.

If a player wants to RP a big huggy bear so be it. My character would even try to support Gruumsh follower exiles. I would try to change his/her ways. I would also fight them if they caused too much trouble. It's all RP fodder really.
RP your gray orc how you want. But keep in mind, you are joining a group of gray orcs that are trying to live among other playable races that want to kill us.

I don't like Alt Gray Orcs, or AGOs....
….More often than not people forget that racism in Forgotten Realms is absolute, and this just leads us into some sort of utopia where all races harmonize... which is no longer FR.
In conclusion your title "Wanna break the Gray Orc" feels like we're trying to break the very foundations of the game itself.

Nobody Rping a Gray Orc has broken the foundation of the game. But now that you mention it- Challenge accepted!
Racism in a fantasy setting is different then racism in RL. In real life it is illogical and unjustified. But in a fantasy setting it totally is logical and completely justified.
Most white people are evil.
Most orcs are evil.
One statement is valid and reliable one is not.
My point being that racism in Fantasy is a healthy thing (aside from the Hin short jokes), but its hard for a decent person, to get their heads around. It is not the fault of wanting to RP an orc. Orcs are cool. But no you should not trust them.
Then again it is equally silly to enforce a belief that all people have to always hate all Orcs forever and ever, the end. -Because its just another extreme.

I don't even like that Grey Orcs are a playable race in BGSTCC

There are lots of things that happen on this server that do not align with the Forgotten Realms lore. And a handful orcs fleeing their homeland heading west does not seem that out of place to me. A lot of players in this game have traveled extreme distances to get to the sword coast. I have seen more players from Chult and Kara Tur than I have seen Gray Orcs. Also, the race is very rare in game, so that pans out with the lore just fine.

so why is the Grey Orc playable?

Orcs are cool and orcs are a popular humanoid race.
Also the Gray Orc has the wisdom bonus. This technically means that the average Gray Orc can perceive the world around them more accurately then a human can. That makes them a perfect choice for a playable race. Although a wise gray orc is one that obeys what the Orc Gods tell them, a Gray Orc has a far better chance of thinking outside the box, than a mountain orc does. And therefor is a superior choice between the two as a playable race, RP wise.

this is a Baldur's Gate Forgotten Realms server

This is a “Baldur's Gate the Sword Coast Chronicles server.”
It is not a “deserk's Gate the Sword Coast Chronicles server.”
You do not like Gray Orc's I get it. I will mark you down as not interested in joining my group.
And thanks for your input. but please keep in mind what you see as a mistake or wrong, others do not.



Now the Gray Orc is probably the least liked race in the game. But simply put, that is how they are supposed to work.
We can not all be elves can we?

[deserk]

There are lots of things that happen on this server that do not align with the Forgotten Realms lore.

The good ol' "two wrongs make a right" argument. Why even align with Forgotten Realms lore at all while you're at it?

And a handful orcs fleeing their homeland heading west does not seem that out of place to me.

Even a "handful" should not warrant it being a playable race. As mentioned in the previous post, there are countless races in other regions of Faerun that are not playable in BGTSCC currently. Firbolgs, thri-kreen, aranea, etc. or even Star Elves and Wild Dwarves. If this lazy rationale is enough to justify adding Grey Orcs, then by the same token what is stopping us from adding in whatever else?

And another thing should be considered about the Grey Orcs here on BGTSCC is that they are currently the only playable orc race and the only player representation of that race, a part from Tanarukks. If people want evil marauding orcs, then it should be Mountain Orcs, as they are the real looming threat in the Sword Coast and the North. Not a handful of eastern orc snowflakes, who apparently and conveniently decided to migrate to exactly this spot through thousands of miles of hostile and mostly human ruled territory, just so you could play them for the sake of their more generous stats and mechanics relative to Mountain Orcs.

A lot of players in this game have traveled extreme distances to get to the sword coast. I have seen more players from Chult and Kara Tur than I have seen Gray Orcs. Also, the race is very rare in game, so that pans out with the lore just fine.

Humans from Kara-Tur is not quite comparable to this, except if you could only play a Kara-Turan in Baldur's Gate rather than a Faerunian. Consider for a moment, you are allowing a virtually non-existent variety of orcs to be playable here vs an orc subrace that is as common as the brown bear or a grey wolf within this setting. Again, why? Why let Grey Orcs, a race that has no place here; be the only representation of Orcs (save for Tanarukks). Not to mention, most players of said race seem to entirely ignore the lore of that race, and their only interest is in it's stats.

"The (grey) orcs of the eastern lands are concentrated in the Moonsea and Endless Wastes today, with a much smaller number scattered through the various lands that lie between." - Races of Faerun (3.5) page 65.

Orcs are cool and orcs are a popular humanoid race.
Also the Gray Orc has the wisdom bonus. This technically means that the average Gray Orc can perceive the world around them more accurately then a human can. That makes them a perfect choice for a playable race. Although a wise gray orc is one that obeys what the Orc Gods tell them, a Gray Orc has a far better chance of thinking outside the box, than a mountain orc does. And therefor is a superior choice between the two as a playable race, RP wise.

So your justification all boils down to stats and mechanics, and absolute indifference to lore?

This is a “Baldur's Gate the Sword Coast Chronicles server.”
It is not a “deserk's Gate the Sword Coast Chronicles server.”

A total straw man argument. I am not imposing my will arbitrarily on PW by simply pointing an area where this PW errs in representing the area of it's namesake, and by pointing out what the sourcebooks say.

You do not like Gray Orc's I get it.

I actually do like Grey Orcs, enough that I actually respect their lore, as opposed to virtually every Grey Orc player. Whom again, seem only interested in them for stat reasons alone. These are the two camps that keep Grey Orcs playable "the screw lore, I just want to play whatever for the lolz" and the "well it was a mistake made years ago, so... yeah, it would be too messy to change anything now".

[Agog_Fr]

I appreciate your spirit of respect for the background.

But the reason the gray orc is here is very simple: it's a basic race of Mask of the Betrayer. So there was no effort to integrate it!

You do not have to look any further, I think.

After, we can always imagine unlikely scenarios to explain their presence here: a slave raid was able to capture a group near the Moonsea. Then the group could be resold in Underdark, and be transported farther west, then they could have escaped, etc.


And most importantly, BGTSCC manage very well their presence, since they are banned from the human bastions, ie Baldur's Gate and the Trade Way Inn. They are probably hated and feared by locals just like the drow.

It is therefore an exotic and hardcore race, in respect of the BG.

[Steve]

I'll just leave this here:

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=52453

And help myself out. Cheers!

[Tekill]

deserk you made a mistake.
I did not make a 2 wrongs make a right argument because I do not think playing a Gray Orc on this service is wrong.

What I meant was, I don't control the content and mechanics of this server. I work with what is available. And that's not wrong either.

I do not plan on going back and forth with you on this as it will spiral into prejudice and rhetoric.

So I will make this my last opinion on the matter.

It is my opinion that a small group of gray orc misfit pilgrims immigrating to the sword coast is viable and non lore breaking. It can totally happen. And it is happening, because I am doing it.

If you all want to RP a Firbolg, you have my support!
I do not see the logic that just because you cant play a Firbolg, that I should not be able to play a Gray Orc. Work with what you have available.

I cant point out where it says Gray orcs frequent Soubar, but you cant show me exactly where it says no Gray Orc has ever stepped foot on the Sword Coast. We are talking a micro fraction, a tiny non measurable demographic of players- which to me is totally reasonable to the lore as far as I can see.

Making an argument that orcs are not from that region just does not cut it for me. Simply put, orcs can travel. They are known to travel long distances. Dimensions even!
Gray orcs even have a feat called Long Gait. So Nyah!

Why Gray Orcs?
Well, why not Gray Orcs?

I betcha, even if we were discussing mountain orcs right now there would still be a shared opinion against even them being a playable race, or played as non evil. Which is fine, but it doesn't convince me not to want to play a Gray Orc, or any orc for that matter.

Its really hard to play an Orc on this server. Even H-Orcs are a bit difficult. I have created over half a dozen attempts so far and just ended up rerolling.
Its hard to play a 'true orc' with this servers PVP rules. Its hard when The Horde has to allow for RP outs. Heheh.
Its hard to RP overtly evil and still survive for long periods of time.
You put all three together, and the traditional typical stereotypical Orc player fails every time. We have all seen it over and over.

I will definitely concede that that my Gray Orc is snow-flaky, but I know if it stops feeling realistic to me then I will stop playing my orc. So far so good, though.

I am just trying an alternative. I am working with what is available. If I do it right it should make for some fun (non world breaking) RP.

I think we have debated the....what is it....the existential threat? -of a Gray Orc walking around the fictional realm of the sword coast, Forgotten Realms, long enough.

If anyone is interested in my little group let me know. We will meet up.