How to achieve a happy and content playerbase

[K'yon Oblodra]

I feel like this is really an old discussion. I don't see a reason why there should not be a way to get rid of permastrikes.

I do however think you'll never receive one Hoihe, because you'll just never get yourself into a position where DMs would give you those and even if you'd get into an event where it was possible you'd play in a way that wouldn't justify them giving one to you and that is something I can easily say is your right to do so and noone should judge.

Players telling you that you'd get a permastrike or death if you PvP them are a nice joke, noone would ever enforce such silly forcing yourself on another from the DM side I am positive.
Players that do attempt this kind of stuff should be aware that they themselves are doing something that is very poor for RPing because a very quintessential thing in RP is to never force yourself on the other.
Everyone should always aim to allow the other to get his ideas going because that leads to spontaneous, new and interesting turns of events but you should always offer your opposite a way out.
I am not talking about PvP only but really anything even if you're just trying to sell somebody an item because you really think they absolutely need it you should always realize if they have a different opinion and be able to let go of the idea and maybe find a new one.
I know this is a bit of a silly example but it really isn't much about that what but that you're just always open minded and receptive of the others thoughts and feelings. Because the most satisfying roleplay comes to pass if both parties just get some of their ideas realized and often you really find new exciting things others bring up that you hadn't thought of until then, which I think is even better than your own ideas, because they opposed to your own actually surprise you.

So to come to a point, I think this discussion is less about the topic itself than about two different approaches in play and maybe a lack of understanding for one another.

Sorry if this was a bit much of rambling XD.

In the end I think you guys should just try to be a bit nicer to each other the ones more interested in consequential RP and those that would like to play more lightly.

[SoThereIWas]

Hidden: show

Players telling you that you'd get a permastrike or death if you PvP them are a nice joke, noone would ever enforce such silly forcing yourself on another from the DM side I am positive.
Players that do attempt this kind of stuff should be aware that they themselves are doing something that is very poor for RPing because a very quintessential thing in RP is to never force yourself on the other.

That's where my strike came from really, and was warned that if it happens again this time in the Underdark then another will be tacked on in another capture situation with players and not a NPC involved where any PvP would have been initially started.

So i guess it can happen? It's confusing at times for me too that said I'm afraid. First one was no warning ahead of time.

[Wolfrayne]

My latest attempt to Permastrike myself (or at least have the risk of doing so) has instead landed me with a Demon pact that at this point i cannot break which im happy to say im having a lot of fun with.

Nobody player is going to force a permastrike on you since they cant. DM's wont do it unless you do something outright stupid and even then i mean cmon.. we have seen evil people run rampant through town like its a fecking circus and nothing ever happened so why the hell even worry about it?

Players can walk away from any situation they are not comfortable with including PVP. Everything is in favor of keeping your character alive despite any and all attempts to the contrary so can we please drop this subject and focus on something a little more interesting.

[K'yon Oblodra]

Hidden: show

Players telling you that you'd get a permastrike or death if you PvP them are a nice joke, noone would ever enforce such silly forcing yourself on another from the DM side I am positive.
Players that do attempt this kind of stuff should be aware that they themselves are doing something that is very poor for RPing because a very quintessential thing in RP is to never force yourself on the other.

That's where my strike came from really, and was warned that if it happens again this time in the Underdark then another will be tacked on in another capture situation with players and not a NPC involved where any PvP would have been initially started.

So i guess it can happen? It's confusing at times for me too that said I'm afraid. First one was no warning ahead of time.

Then you've gotten a strike as warning for going into the UD without good RP reason. I doubt a DM would give you a strike if you had a reason for going down to the UD as surfacer. It is a dangerous place and there is a clear warning to go there without a reason. I am surprised you got one apparently just like that but yea it's not like you'd get another 2 like that .

[Maecius]

I can probably count on one hand the number of permadeaths imposed on players against their wills by the DMs.

In fact, I have personally deleted far more characters and emptied far more vaults to clear out hackers and cheater characters than I've ever deleted for RP reasons at the DM Team's request.

In all of the RP-related permadeath cases I can think of, the perma-killed had to have seen it coming from a mile away, too -- they have always followed multiple warnings, counseling, and even flat out promises that their continued high risk (and usually, but not always, also high PVP) behavior would result in the loss of their character if they were defeated/captured/turned in to the law one more time, etc.

Actively fearing the involuntary loss of your character, particularly with zero warnings or indications that you're walking the line, is an irrational fear, in my opinion. The evidence does not support that anyone is in danger of losing their character unless they are A) cheating, or B) ignoring multiple and repeated warnings and counseling in order to consciously continue threatening the believability/consistency of the setting with outlandish IC behavior (walking through surface towns with undead in tow, trying to storm the Flaming First castle solo, etc.).

I'd argue that the permadeath rules primarily exist to protect the setting more than anything else. DMs are welcome to use them to play up the danger and risk of their events, but they were originally designed (and have only really ever been used) to remove characters who just weren't gelling with the server and the setting even after multiple interventions and counseling sessions. More often than not, the players of those ill-fitting characters even stick around and become highly successful on new characters, better designed to fit in with the collaborative storyline, after they've familiarized themselves with the server and the culture of the server on their first, now dead character.

In fact, one of the server's earliest forced permadeath character's players eventually went on to become a very successful DM here, so it's not like it's held against anyone either.

I mean, even I managed to get the first character I played here banished from Baldur's Gate.

[Balthomer]

Eh, I can think of PCs who died a million times on PvP and RP and just keep coming back, this thread is pointless.

[SoThereIWas]

Then you've gotten a strike as warning for going into the UD without good RP reason. I doubt a DM would give you a strike if you had a reason for going down to the UD as surfacer. It is a dangerous place and there is a clear warning to go there without a reason. I am surprised you got one apparently just like that but yea it's not like you'd get another 2 like that .

I didn't get two, It was one from another who failed to try and assassinate my PC while at the Bridge Fort, where it all started. The second one never happened and was just one warning at the time. Assassinations are perma death not a strike, typically. But he was captured in the end.

[Ariexedes]

Eh, I can think of PCs who died a million times on PvP and RP and just keep coming back, this thread is pointless.

cuz' no one's name is in Myrkul's book on the entire server. Why I still think it should be set up like a mmorpg; get knocked out respawn in the nearby city/town/settlement with the exp/gold loss.

[SoThereIWas]

cuz' no one's name is in Myrkul's book on the entire server. Why I still think it should be set up like a mmorpg; get knocked out respawn in the nearby city/town/settlement with the exp/gold loss.

I would actually be surprised if others can actually true resurrect any of my few PCs who are dead that I opted into a perma death with.

I'm not sure how the system works as i did opted into it, and they are not in my vault anymore. As i got rid of them shortly after

[Hoihe]

I can probably count on one hand the number of permadeaths imposed on players against their wills by the DMs.

In fact, I have personally deleted far more characters and emptied far more vaults to clear out hackers and cheater characters than I've ever deleted for RP reasons at the DM Team's request.

In all of the RP-related permadeath cases I can think of, the perma-killed had to have seen it coming from a mile away, too -- they have always followed multiple warnings, counseling, and even flat out promises that their continued high risk (and usually, but not always, also high PVP) behavior would result in the loss of their character if they were defeated/captured/turned in to the law one more time, etc.

Actively fearing the involuntary loss of your character, particularly with zero warnings or indications that you're walking the line, is an irrational fear, in my opinion. The evidence does not support that anyone is in danger of losing their character unless they are A) cheating, or B) ignoring multiple and repeated warnings and counseling in order to consciously continue threatening the believability/consistency of the setting with outlandish IC behavior (walking through surface towns with undead in tow, trying to storm the Flaming First castle solo, etc.).

I'd argue that the permadeath rules primarily exist to protect the setting more than anything else. DMs are welcome to use them to play up the danger and risk of their events, but they were originally designed (and have only really ever been used) to remove characters who just weren't gelling with the server and the setting even after multiple interventions and counseling sessions. More often than not, the players of those ill-fitting characters even stick around and become highly successful on new characters, better designed to fit in with the collaborative storyline, after they've familiarized themselves with the server and the culture of the server on their first, now dead character.

In fact, one of the server's earliest forced permadeath character's players eventually went on to become a very successful DM here, so it's not like it's held against anyone either.

I mean, even I managed to get the first character I played here banished from Baldur's Gate.

There is precedent of DMs trying to be grimdark and forcing permanent mutiliation/injuries on characters. (roll nat20 strength, your muscles are torn in a way even Regenerate can't fix).

There is precedent of DMs strongly disagreeing with the RP surrounding a PC. One DM I knew personally IRL who admitted he'd love the ability to retcon the RP surrounding my own PC.


All it takes to get rid of a paladin-esque PC is the following:
Spot PC around a crowd of their peers.
Force them into an event without any permadeath leading up to it.
Railroad an encounter where they either take the permarisk for doing a "dumb" action or they go against their oaths with their peers as witness.

Repeat until enough permastrikes are accumulated.

Technically admins "might" put a stop to it. But that is a might and depends highly on who the admins are, how the DM in question relates to them.



Also, more high risk events. Refer to the "Paladin guild that hated PvP but were active in PvE/DM events getting actively ridiculed ICly for their inaction vs the pvp-mongering guild that everyone knew was only there to PvP random people with minimal RP." If one refuses participation in certain events due to OOCly absolutely and utterly and violently hating the existence of permadeath, there will be IC consequences for an OOC preference.

Then there are DMs who love to grimdark it up with uncurable diseases/mutiliation you cannot heal with Remove Disease/Regenerate that makes the character impossible to play. One of my friends wound up being stuck with such for ONE ENTIRE YEAR, negatively affecting their enjoyment of roleplay with no avenue to fix things. Another time a PC was made unplayable due to pain/blindness for near-longer than a month.

The proposed alternate rules protect from all of the above without hurting anyone.



As for "cumbersome" @Fury. Is it not cumbersome already that if you permakill a PC, they could easily get a VPN and reroll their character under a false name and continue as if nothing happened if they disagree? I have seen it happen plenty of times when someone wanted to avoid IC reputation issues/ooc harassment. DMs already have to watch for that, and I can guarantee you I would likely follow this solution to a matter I consider bollocks. Easier to just be accomodating.


As for "it only affects you." There are more people that hate permadeath, but they're either quiet or have quit since then. I seem to be the only one who cares to try and engage and try to protect either the status quo from people going "Server is quiet/there is a lull because I can't go and burn down guild halls/murdicate PCs! If you want more active server admins, ENABLE HARDCORE FOR PRO GAMERS!", from people spamming Discord with "you need permadeath for RP to be meaningful/worth anything" (aka, creating peer pressure to force people into 'high risk' situations if they want to be considered good RPers), from posting on discord making fun of players they PvP'd and refused to permadie to their beheading/vampiric feast or make the server less stressful in general.



As for "Don't play paladins/bladesingers/their archetype if you don't like permadeath", you will still wind up with friends who do that and a character that will fight to protect them and will wind up dragged along into permadeath events due to pseudo-bodyguard behaviour. And as much as I love slice of life RP, BG's mechanics and players don't wholly support me being in Doron Amar/Candlekeep 24/7 and also having constant engaging RP.

[Ravial]

There is precedent of DMs trying to be grimdark and forcing permanent mutiliation/injuries on characters. (roll nat20 strength, your muscles are torn in a way even Regenerate can't fix).

There is precedent of DMs strongly disagreeing with the RP surrounding a PC. One DM I knew personally IRL who admitted he'd love the ability to retcon the RP surrounding my own PC.

This happened more than 4-5 years ago. Stop bringing it back. All persons from that time are gone.

[Hoihe]

There is precedent of DMs trying to be grimdark and forcing permanent mutiliation/injuries on characters. (roll nat20 strength, your muscles are torn in a way even Regenerate can't fix).

There is precedent of DMs strongly disagreeing with the RP surrounding a PC. One DM I knew personally IRL who admitted he'd love the ability to retcon the RP surrounding my own PC.

This happened more than 4-5 years ago. Stop bringing it back. All persons from that time are gone.

The DM I knew IRL was active like 2 years ago.

And as long as there's a non-zero probability of such happening again, and there is no hard and fast counter (Hah, you try screw me over, i just drop mechanical/plot advantage and you can sod off), one will continue to worry.

[SoThereIWas]

This happened more than 4-5 years ago. Stop bringing it back. All persons from that time are gone.

I think they are worried it may happen again. And realistically, one bad experience is enough to warrant fear of something to happen again. So we become more attune to our surroundings in a place and time to be watchful and mindful about it. And at times we try to dodge it. It has little to do with grudges so much as self preservation. But that's really all I have to say about it.

EDIT: I knows who won't drink tequila for the same reasons, so we all do it. It's a matter of what and why.

[Hoihe]

This happened more than 4-5 years ago. Stop bringing it back. All persons from that time are gone.

I think they are worried it may happen again. And realistically, one bad experience is enough to warrant fear of something to happen again. So we become more attune to our surroundings in a place and time to be watchful and mindful about it. And at times we try to dodge it. It has little to do with grudges so much as self preservation. But that's really all I have to say about it.

EDIT: I knows who won't drink tequila for the same reasons, so we all do it. It's a matter of what and why.

And it doesn't help one bit seeing forums full of "Server sucks/there is a lull because of old characters I cannot kill!", discord full of "People who don't like grimdark life is shit simulators are horrible RPers" and even people in staff positions calling RP that avoids permadeath/permamutiliation "worthless."

It does not instill any trust in whatever new DMs we get, or even fellow players and the above example of "Knightly guild made fun of for OOC preferences ICly."

[edmaster]

I think you're making mountains out of tiny pot holes Hoihe, I don't see the Grimdark Murderhobo happy folks on this server. Maybe we have different lenses, but i just do not see it at all....