Guild Leadership shouldn't be held by retired players.

[chad878262]

Szass Tam is CR31... Thus if the Red Wizard Guild were to have 4 or 5 PC's of level 30 that banded together and for whatever reason went up against him they very well might win (with more than likely a death or 3). I believe that is why in the past it has been said IC'ly that folks are supposed to assume their PCs are 1/2 the level on their character sheet. This of course brings up issues with server PvE content and DM events where archdemons, ancient dragons, etc. are battled. In the end, it is an issue of difficulties when lore changing events will cause more problems than what staff wants to deal with.

It has often been said that a duke CAN be killed with proper RP, execution and luck. However, in practice I'm pretty sure any DM(s) would make the execution and luck part IMPOSSIBLE, simply because of the repercussions of what would need to be done to move forward from such a change. Is that necessarily a bad thing? In PnP if a character tries to take the story too far off the rails the DM either has to decide to scrap a TON of work and go off the cuff, do something to force them closer to one of any number of rails they've planned for, or cause the PC to fail. Is what occurs in BGtSCC so different? Especially when you consider a PnP group of 3-8 players+ a DM vs. BG having dozens of players and multiple DMs, I think a bit of 'glass ceiling' should be acceptable to support the sanity of staff and players not involved in whatever earth shattering/lore breaking event might take place.

I got no skin in the game here and this is woefully off topic which is supposed to be about Guild Leadership by retired players, but on the tangent of NPCs, in a game where the PCs could smoke Elminster (or whoever) that would likely only occur at the very end of a game before that party is retired and the group moves on to some other game (D&D or otherwise). On a persistent server that isn't really an option, since the whole of the server must move forward after whatever occurs.

In general, I think guild leadership of the "Lore" guilds is exactly as it should be. The Red Wizards are a satellite trade guild of Thay, their is a PC leader, but he/she does report to higher ups that are offscreen for the most part since they are in Thay. The Thieves Guild is not a part of the Shadow Thieves and thus it makes sense that the Duchess (or is it a Duke right now?) of Shadow is the highest ranking leader, but how much power does the Thieves Guild really have anyway? I suppose the DMs could install Alatos "Ravenscar" Thuibuld, but there is no need... He is not necessarily the leader of the Thieves Guild in our (1e) timeline afterall. So in general I think the guilds are fine as they are, but certainly if there is a disagreement than the HDMs and Admins should be notified and all parties should attempt to come to some kind of agreement as to how everyone can come to some mutually acceptable path forward.

Frankly, I don't have the time to dedicate to getting in game, but if I did I would want to spend it playing. This is why I said previously, and still believe the best approach is - just switching to a guild that won't require so much OOC/out of game effort. But to each their own.

[Tekill]

I am picking up what you are all putting down.

[DM Boo]

We try to be as hands-off with guilds as we possibly can, because most of the time guilds *can* and *do* sort out these sorts of disputes by themselves. They are Player Guilds, and we would like to keep them in your hands, as much as possible. There is a slight difference in how we handle Lore Guilds and Non-Lore Guilds, however, which I will describe below:

- For Non-Lore Guilds we generally do not get involved, at all. These guilds were created by a certain player, and are therefore "owned" by them, even if they go inactive. For players who are involved in one of these guilds and their guild leader moves on without appointing a successor, it is recommended that they split off and start their own, therefore letting the old guild simply die out. There are certain cases where DM's do step in, though, but they usually revolve around guilds who have been around for so long, they basically become part of the server lore, IE they become Lore Guilds in their own right.

- For Lore Guilds, things are much different. If a problem does occur, and it cannot be resolved among the guild's players, if we are asked to a DM will step in and act in one of three ways - If the guild is entirely dead, we'll appoint whoever shows interest in bringing it back on its feet. The person asking for this must show us that they have made a reasonable amount of effort trying to reach out to other guild members and guild leaders, they are capable of running the guild, and the guild has to have been inactive for at least a period of three months.

If the guild still has players left in it, but the leadership refuses to step down despite being inactive, or has fallen off the face of the planet, the DM's will usually ask for candidates to come forward before holding an in-house vote (where only players within the guild can vote). Whoever wins becomes the new guild leader.

If there are two or more parties interested in running the guild, we do things in a similar way to the above, but instead of asking for candidates to come forward we jump right into the voting period. We try to stay out it as much as possible, to avoid taking sides. It inevitably comes down to a popularity contest among the guild mates, where the winner takes all.

[Rask]

It's come to my attention on the Discord that the leader of the Thayan guild, while inactive, has said they'll pass the guild along to someone who steps up. So it seems like a non-issue. /thread

I hope this is true, because this was the opposite of our experience when we tried. I think the amount of attention I inadvertantly brought toward him (even though I didn't name the player in my original post.) and the issue we had with trying to revive the guild, may have made him realize he was doing a lot more harm than he thought. To be clear: I do not think the current leader is a bad person/bad player. In fact in the past he was a great RPer. But that being said, the situation I described in the other thread which inspired this thread, was still a thing that happened and I am sure has happened elsewhere in other guilds.

I am glad to see that this is the case. I am still in the RW Discord myself but mostly it is people chiming in to say they have RCR'd their RW and wont be coming back due to lack of activity. So hopefully this creates a void for someone new to step in who has the time and wants to put in the effort to make the guild active again. I personally do not have the time or inclination to lead a guild, but I would none the less love to see it active.

[professiondude]

More thoughtful guild leaders will put measures in place if they're expecting a long-term absentia, like I did when I was in charge of the Sharrans. If you are a guild leader and you are not actively scoping for a potential replacement for yourself/your character, you are on track to failing your guild in my opinion. Obviously handovers in some guild environments (especially secret/occult guilds) are a little trickier, but that is where OOC collaboration and friendships with your guildies can really help. I cannot express enough how important it was to get to know the Sharran groupies OOCly over Discord, even if each guild member occupied their specific IC level of initiation into the overall guild structure.

Consideration, collaboration, co-operation.

Unfortunately, there are a select few self-absorbed players whose innate selfishness results in situations hinted at by Mr. Cancer King. This is really where DMs need to put their foot down.

*sarcastic coughed laughter reading it*
Mean amusing comment in this one for the few, though the pair asked a dm about inactive guild leaders and active members, all got in reply was pretty much ' between you and the guild leader dm's can't/want get involved.' was then threatened practically when a hdm did finally get involved.

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viewtopic.php?f=16&t=37569&p=873739&hilit=Shar#p873739 august 15th

Dec 02, 2018, Dec 09, 2018 (talking two diffrent dm's)
Dec 09 (Being away with family that weekend, Sharran account send out activity pm's was unable to reply within the 48hrs)
Dec 10 (talking to dm still when I got home)
Dec 12 ( pretty much threatened by hdm to surrender membership)
Dec 13 ( last time a dm put effort into talking to me about the matter)

Still have every PM

You weren't forced to surrender membership.
We (what little active members are still in Church of Shar guild) tried to work with you and wolf.
We even brought you into a DM event because you were a part of the guild..no one was excluded.
You then left the guild with wolf while still holding onto your keys.
If you were forced to surrender anything, it was the keys to the guild hall. Not your membership.
Then tried to "share" a guild hall with us, even though you left the guild willingly.

Please don't mislead people into thinking you were kicked, when you walked out the door yourselves.
The Church of Shar is always willing to accept new recruits.
Sadly due to real life, we will always have a spotty activity in our memberbase.




Also, the August 15th post was not a post directed at you or wolf, we have nothing to do with you two as we still do not know how to even role play with two former members who just disappeared out of thin air.
Your exit left a lot of holes in our standing rp.

If you think you didn't hurt anyone when you left, you did. A lot of stories were left unfinished for selfish reasons on both sides. Due to this, we all missed out on some unknown opportunities that could have came to be.


Since we're on the case of Church of Shar, our posts on the wall are meant to remind people we are still there.. That's all it's for.

we are an evil guild...we can't just post pictures of us doing spy work (with our shiny pretty face and names) inside Baldur's Gate and show 'how' we're active with the server...that would out us..

[Ariexedes]

* slow clap*

yes well, by all means, post a private matter on a public topic that is off-topic post anyway could have always posted as a pm like we have been, and would have gotten the full story instead of assuming.

[professiondude]

You put our guild in the chat first.
Don't blame me for defending it.

[Ariexedes]

Ya really need to read friend where in my post, my words did I say what guild I was talking about not a quote of someone, I left it unknown in my own post, not to bring direct 'attacking' as you think i am. Between you and tsid who gave the guild, it's named posted and brought to light and it's currently on going with ex-members.

Thus leaving this here so the topic can get back on topic, as anything I've said further has been through pm's who it regards to flap laundry in the breeze for everyone else to read.

[Wolfrayne]

Please do not share sensitive information in public. DM Doom.

Just to make a couple of things clear.

1st The guild leadership was originally given to me, and it was due to the DM's that i was not allowed to have it because i was in fact on the DM team myself and "DM's cant be guild leaders"

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2nd I was the one who asked to be removed from the guild due to some OOC and IC issues i had with some people who were simply let in because the guild was dying off and Tsid really didnt care what happened by this point. I tried very hard to do so in a way that would be lore appropriate so that i didnt disrupt the other people regardless of my personal feelings towards some of them.

Screenshot removed

3rd. Valkira never had a choice, she was asked to surrender her guild key, By the DM's, after i had excused myself from the guild. This was in part due to me as she had been away and wasnt even here to make the choice herself. She took it as a personal attack and didnt want anything to do with the guild by this point.

I asked that the guild hall remain open to people who were loyal to Shar as the DM team had previously opened it up to EVERYONE of the faith which of course was shot down and retconned by the DM team and current guild leadership.

What frustrates me is this stupid "rule" that there cannot be two of the same guild, im sorry but Shar has and always will have multiple cells that operate within cities, sometimes these cells are not even aware of the others existence, that is just the nature of the faith and i will not be pushed to "merge" anything with anyone. I have spent far too many years playing a Sharan to give up any of it.

I just find it funny how the Guild actively posts every time there is talk of leadership being swapped, nothing happens for months but as soon as the question is bought up "No no were here honest!" Just my two cents.

[Planehopper]

Take it to PMs.

Thanks for those of you that contributed positively, I am certain you've given the admins and DMs something to think about.