Move class-specific languages to a higher level

[Druchii]

Seems fair and sensible, if doable.

[Hoihe]

That's it folks.

The topic is the suggestion.









But for real, moving the class languages higher up the totem pole makes it a bit more immersive in my eyes. A level 1 rogue knowing Thieves' Cant (even if they just dipped 3 in rogue for whatever reason) doesn't make as much sense as a rogue who is level 5, they've been a rogue for a while now, they're vetted into it, maybe they practiced the language a bit. Commitment to the class should reward the language so every Tom, Fred, and George aren't walking around speaking Assasin, Cant, Animal, etc. Should have to earn those languages instead of them being freely given for taking one level.

A level 1 character is already implied to have years of experience with that class, especially if taken at level 1.

A level 1 rogue has been a rogue for a long, long time, or at least its NPC-class equivalent until they did something/achieved a level of mastery that puts them above and beyond the average thief.

This is especially so for wizards, who have, for humans, 16 + 2d6 as their starting age. Rogues only 1d4.

When one takes a class level after level 1, they learn the class much faster than they would at first level, due to having greater access to resources and also the kind of worldlyness an adventurer has over a generic nobody.

I have no stakes in this conversation. However, a level 1 in a class is not a newbie. They're someone who have proven themselves to be better than most of the populace by virtue of having a PC class, not an NPC class. If our lvl 1 was a newbie to the world of thievery/skullduggery/thuggery/etc, they would have commoner as their class, or perhaps expert/aristocrat.

[Hoihe]

A level 1 character is already implied to have years of experience with that class, especially if taken at level 1.

A level 1 rogue has been a rogue for a long, long time, or at least its NPC-class equivalent until they did something/achieved a level of mastery that puts them above and beyond the average thief.

This is especially so for wizards, who have, for humans, 16 + 2d6 as their starting age. Rogues only 1d4.

When one takes a class level after level 1, they learn the class much faster than they would at first level, due to having greater access to resources and also the kind of worldlyness an adventurer has over a generic nobody.

I have no stakes in this conversation. However, a level 1 in a class is not a newbie. They're someone who have proven themselves to be better than most of the populace by virtue of having a PC class, not an NPC class. If our lvl 1 was a newbie to the world of thievery/skullduggery/thuggery/etc, they would have commoner as their class, or perhaps expert/aristocrat.

I can agree to some degree that a level 1 character may have been at their class for years, but if a level 5 fighter dips into rogue they're not suddenly speaking thieves' cant fluently with no prior training regardless of their resources or worldyness, much like how a rogue who dips into druid shouldn't be able to empathically speak to animals immediately.

I just think we have to look passed mechanics and ask "does this make a lot of sense for someone to immediately know a language when yesterday they had no idea it even existed?"

Often, at least preferably, when someone is multiclassing, it is implied if not outright RP'd that they were training to acquire the multiclass from level 1, or at least a few levels before. Especially considering many of us pre-plan builds from level 1 (an unfortunate necessity of our server design making taking a level based on present RP almost suicidal), someone who takes rogue 1 at level 6 might well have being a thug of the underworld as their level 1, but they took fighter levels for sake of easier low levels at the start.

Altho usually you get rogue1/fighter4/rogue2/+ for sake of skillpoints.

[Mallore]

I like the idea of class languages being at level 4 or higher. Past dip numbers. However it is kinda mute issue as some languages such as Theives Can’t are broken. There is an illusion they successfully work but it is just that, an illusion.

There have been great servers that have fixed Theives can’t with more approximate ways, but sadly it’s been kinda over looked.

Example. “Find the safe”
Theives can’t. “Where of safe”.

It be cool to see someone take up a fix for this and then make it level 4 or 5 higher

[Blackman D]

i am gonna have to side with hoihe, just because you have 1-3 levels doesnt mean you dont know the language it means exactly the opposite, that you have learned the trade

of course rogues are picked on because thieves cant is for the "cool kids" but imagine if you were a spell caster that didnt know arcana to... cast... spells... at 4th level... doesnt make any damn sense now does it

[Mallore]

i am gonna have to side with hoihe, just because you have 1-3 levels doesnt mean you dont know the language it means exactly the opposite, that you have learned the trade

of course rogues are picked on because thieves cant is for the "cool kids" but imagine if you were a spell caster that didnt know arcana to... cast... spells... at 4th level... doesnt make any damn sense now does it

Truth to that though the only non functioning language is can’t, further Arcana is universal which is part of the fun and flavor. While Can’t is regional, each being inquie to their region. Doesn’t exactly make sense anyone could just pick it up when say their back story is Westgate or Waterdeep and yet are in Baulders Gate

I do think the OP has a good point to go along with your Arcana example. With all things considered “making sense”.

[Blackman D]

then what about languages from INT bonus, its not as if you spend years and years learning a new language that way either, you just learn it, gonna change that also?

[Steve]

then what about languages from INT bonus, its not as if you spend years and years learning a new language that way either, you just learn it, gonna change that also?

Not appropriate to apply RL circumstances to a game that can be max experience attained in 30-60 days.

And on point, one could RP that languages gained every INT mod gained are not instant fluency, but realization of time spent in learning a language.

And let's not forget this Server allows for Languages to be granted a PC outside of Level via direct OOC application to the DMs!!

I think a valid point is made that Class languages could be moved to Level 4, so that taking a Class beyond a dip has greater benefits.

But realize also that already created PCs won't retroactively lose these languages if a change is made, unless some wild Log On script is introduced to strip them off, then reapply if Class Level > 4.

[Blackman D]

you are missing my point tho, if you can say that about languages learned from INT then how can you not say the same about classes?

stats go up 1 every 4 levels so in 8 levels you can learn a language and you say you can spend that time rping learning said language, so if i take wiz/sorc/rog/druid/cleric/any other class with a language at level 8... how can you not apply the same reasoning? same for DM granted

how is one method suddenly so different than another when talking about the same outcome

[Hoihe]

I have no horse in the dip race but.


why are we opposing dippers?

If one wants to encourage a pure class for whatever unnecessary reason, simply give bonuses at later levels without damaging the bonuses of early levels.


most npcs are lvl 1-2 experts/commoners/aristocrats. they can speak thieves cant when appropriate. Why does a lvl 1 rogue need to be "weaker" than the average npc, even if taking at a later point?

[Blackman D]

still talking about gaining a language so it would have ended up in the same spot with or without an example, taking a class is being committed bc its not as if everyone is doing 10/10/10, 15/15, or 30 splits here

[Druchii]

To this day I have refuse to use my full int bonus for extra languages. My drow knows about 12 and could know more it's beyond the realm of justification for the character.

Languages should be an application thing imo and have more to attached than they do. Just person so opinion there.

The whole idea has it's pros and cons but I don't agree a level in a class equates to years of experience personally. Most npcs if they are at lvl1 is because they aren't designed for mechanical combat. It's not a seamless and uniform system to use a s a guide. Especially when you think about enemy spawns and how fast pcs level.

If you spent years being a ranger.. You won't be level 1. I've yet to see anything to convince me otherwise.

[Hoihe]

To this day I have refuse to use my full int bonus for extra languages. My drow knows about 12 and could know more it's beyond the realm of justification for the character.

Languages should be an application thing imo and have more to attached than they do. Just person so opinion there.

The whole idea has it's pros and cons but I don't agree a level in a class equates to years of experience personally. Most npcs if they are at lvl1 is because they aren't designed for mechanical combat. It's not a seamless and uniform system to use a s a guide. Especially when you think about enemy spawns and how fast pcs level.

If you spent years being a ranger.. You won't be level 1. I've yet to see anything to convince me otherwise.

Look up wizards then.

The vast majority of a wizard's training before reaching level 1 is about understanding arcane scriptures, learning to read magic, building up the mental tricks to keep spells and whatnot.

This goes on for years. Then they cast their first cantrip - usually Read Magic. They finally can call themselves a level 0 wizard so to say. Then they spend even more years, learning more and more cantrips until they finally reach circle 1 spells. For humans, it happens 2d6 years after they turn 16.

A level 1 wizard has spent AT LEAST 2 years being a wizard if they're a savant and if you don't count their apprenticehood before their first cantrip.

A level 1 wizard is someone who is already an accomplished journeyman of the magical arts. Not yet an expert, but a few more levels and he's in the upper percentile of humanity. By level 10, or for BG's sake, level 20, he's well an accomplished expert, and by 15/30, a master of the Art.


Same goes for rogue.

A level 1 rogue has spent at least 1 year as a rogue, or in situations that build those skills up.


As for NPCs:

NPC classes exist explicitly to allow higher NPC levels without giving them mechanical combat ability. A level 10 warrior NPC hasn't got anything on just a mere level 4 fighter. Sure, he has 10 BAB, but he has much fewer feats. Still, he's able to threaten the fighter somewhat.

A level 10 commoner? 40 HP, 22 skill points, no real class features that permit combat and can only use a single weapon. Even a level 1 rogue will wipe the floor with them.

Adepts, even at level 20 in pnp terms, are nothing compared to a level 10 PC cleric even in P&P.

[Blackman D]

was gonna say it sounded like someone has never played pnp but hoihe beat me to it...

[Druchii]

Fair enough.