Spell / Scroll / Feat Bugs

[Theodore01]

severe whip BUG: Wieding a whip and any other weapon in the offhand allows for reach attacks with both weapons.

[Snarfy]

I've been doing some testing on my wizard, and I'm not sure lesser mind blank/mind blank is functioning properly.

Just now, I went to the Flind hill outside Greenest with my summon in tow(Greater Planar Ally, Ghaele). After warding it with lesser mind blank, I put down a Cloud of Bewilderment to slow down the gnolls and let the summon go to town. When my summon failed it's save, and despite a message in combat log saying my summon was "immune to mind affecting spells", the green stun icon appeared over it's head, and she wandered around uselessly.

On a follow up testing, to make double-sure the last LMB didn't get breached or time-out, I went back and sent the summon up against 4 flinds, hit her with the lesser mind blank, then dropped a Cloud of Bewilderment on the whole group... same result. I recorded an in-game video, I'll post it after it uploads.

Can anyone else test this and see if they get the same thing?

** Edit ** - Submitted a video via PM to the authorities.

[zhazz]

I've been doing some testing on my wizard, and I'm not sure lesser mind blank/mind blank is functioning properly.

Just now, I went to the Flind hill outside Greenest with my summon in tow(Greater Planar Ally, Ghaele). After warding it with lesser mind blank, I put down a Cloud of Bewilderment to slow down the gnolls and let the summon go to town. When my summon failed it's save, and despite a message in combat log saying my summon was "immune to mind affecting spells", the green stun icon appeared over it's head, and she wandered around uselessly.

On a follow up testing, to make double-sure the last LMB didn't get breached or time-out, I went back and sent the summon up against 4 flinds, hit her with the lesser mind blank, then dropped a Cloud of Bewilderment on the whole group... same result. I recorded an in-game video, I'll post it after it uploads.

Can anyone else test this and see if they get the same thing?

** Edit ** - Submitted a video via PM to the authorities.

Pretty sure that it is not a bug.

Cloud of Bewilderment has the descriptor tag Gas. Per the spell's description, creatures within the gas are blinded and stunned. And the effect lingers for a short while after leaving the area (1 round). All of this makes it a non-mind-influencing spell. It is, literally the gas itself that causes the effects, not the spell itself. The gas might have been produced by a spell, but once released, the gas is just another part of the world.

Mind-influecing spells, such as Daze, have the descriptor tag Mind-Affecting. This is because the spell actively targets the mind of whomever the spell is cast upon. The effect the spell creates is dazing.

Or to put it another way. You are putting a helmet on (Mind Blank) to avoid getting knocked silly out by a blow to the head (Daze), but somone throws a flashbang (Cloud of Bewilderment) at you instead that makes you unable to see (Blinded) and unable to react (Stunned) until it wears off.

[Dagesh]

Hey Shnarf,
according to the wiki, it's vs. a fort save. So it's more like a poison than a mind-affecting spell? The spell school is evocation as well. From what I can see, mind blank won't help here. *shrugs*

[Snarfy]

Pretty sure that it is not a bug.

Cloud of Bewilderment has the descriptor tag Gas. Per the spell's description, creatures within the gas are blinded and stunned. And the effect lingers for a short while after leaving the area (1 round). All of this makes it a non-mind-influencing spell. It is, literally the gas itself that causes the effects, not the spell itself. The gas might have been produced by a spell, but once released, the gas is just another part of the world.

Mind-influecing spells, such as Daze, have the descriptor tag Mind-Affecting. This is because the spell actively targets the mind of whomever the spell is cast upon. The effect the spell creates is dazing.

Or to put it another way. You are putting a helmet on (Mind Blank) to avoid getting knocked silly out by a blow to the head (Daze), but somone throws a flashbang (Cloud of Bewilderment) at you instead that makes you unable to see (Blinded) and unable to react (Stunned) until it wears off.

I get your reasoning... but, I've been talking with two of the best darn mage players that have probably ever played on this server(Invoker and Ravial), and both of their reactions to the gameplay video I recorded were "WTF?!", and to say that something was messed up, more or less. Believe me when I say that if these two players say that something caster-related is broken, then it's probably broken.

Hey Shnarf,
according to the wiki, it's vs. a fort save. So it's more like a poison than a mind-affecting spell? The spell school is evocation as well. From what I can see, mind blank won't help here. *shrugs*

HELLO SIR!

And I quote(a certain retired wizard expert):

A 2nd Circle spell that has a TOTAL CONTROL effect in a cloud and you CANNOT prevent it, is ******* broken

... For reals, this spell is no joke for a high DC caster. And it has zero counters. Go and play with some combos, and you'll know what I mean.

[zhazz]

Pretty sure that it is not a bug.

Cloud of Bewilderment has the descriptor tag Gas. Per the spell's description, creatures within the gas are blinded and stunned. And the effect lingers for a short while after leaving the area (1 round). All of this makes it a non-mind-influencing spell. It is, literally the gas itself that causes the effects, not the spell itself. The gas might have been produced by a spell, but once released, the gas is just another part of the world.

Mind-influecing spells, such as Daze, have the descriptor tag Mind-Affecting. This is because the spell actively targets the mind of whomever the spell is cast upon. The effect the spell creates is dazing.

Or to put it another way. You are putting a helmet on (Mind Blank) to avoid getting knocked silly out by a blow to the head (Daze), but somone throws a flashbang (Cloud of Bewilderment) at you instead that makes you unable to see (Blinded) and unable to react (Stunned) until it wears off.

I get your reasoning... but, I've been talking with two of the best darn mage players that have probably ever played on this server(Invoker and Ravial), and both of their reactions to the gameplay video I recorded were "WTF?!", and to say that something was messed up, more or less. Believe me when I say that if these two players say that something caster-related is broken, then it's probably broken.

Hey Shnarf,
according to the wiki, it's vs. a fort save. So it's more like a poison than a mind-affecting spell? The spell school is evocation as well. From what I can see, mind blank won't help here. *shrugs*

HELLO SIR!

And I quote(a certain retired wizard expert):

A 2nd Circle spell that has a TOTAL CONTROL effect in a cloud and you CANNOT prevent it, is ******* broken

... For reals, this spell is no joke for a high DC caster. And it has zero counters. Go and play with some combos, and you'll know what I mean.

If you are immune to Poison, you should be immune to the Stun part of it. Freedom of Movement possibly works as well. Immunity to Blindness could likely remove the Blind part of it.

And there's a reason why the game tips mention: "Don't underestimate the power of a well-placed low level spell!"
Even a simple Grease spell can be devestating, if the target fail their saving throw

[Dagesh]

The counter, in this case, is the fort save. It won't work against a number of builds I know but great against other casters.

[Snarfy]

If you are immune to Poison, you should be immune to the Stun part of it. Freedom of Movement possibly works as well. Immunity to Blindness could likely remove the Blind part of it.

And there's a reason why the game tips mention: "Don't underestimate the power of a well-placed low level spell!"
Even a simple Grease spell can be devestating, if the target fail their saving throw

Immunity to poison(a druid spell of some sort?) and blindness(blind-fight.. and uhh, I dunno) would be exceptionally difficult/rare for most characters to have as a counter. Freedom of movement is also not a wizard spell, but I'll try and test it... although, the Ghaele has that on her own(I cant remember if she cast it, don't think so).

"Power of a well placed low level spell" disclaimers aside... this makes that Cloud like a circle 8 or 9 spell If you want to see how ridiculous OP it can be, shoot me a tell in game(toon is Mhaenal), and I'll show you how ridonkulous it is. In the meantime, I'll see if I can find any counter.

* edit* - (I haven't been able to test Protection Vs/Circle of Protection spells because, like an idiot, I make poor alignment choices... TN)

The counter, in this case, is the fort save. It won't work against a number of builds I know but great against other casters.

By itself... pshhh, probably easy to counter, yes. But when used in combination with other spells is where it has the possibility to dominate. I mean, I'm happy to have a level 2 spell that can wreck shop, but that doesn't mean it should be this strong. Like I said though, I'll fart around with it and see what I find.

[Dagesh]

So it has 3 checks to go through before being successful. First is Spell Resistance. If that fails, then it makes a fortitude save check. After that it checks for poison immunity. If all those on the creature in the area of effect, they will be stunned and blinded.

This info is based on the spell code.

[Theodore01]

And I quote(a certain retired wizard expert):

A 2nd Circle spell that has a TOTAL CONTROL effect in a cloud and you CANNOT prevent it, is ******* broken

... For reals, this spell is no joke for a high DC caster. And it has zero counters. Go and play with some combos, and you'll know what I mean.

A simple gust of wind and it's blewn away

[Snarfy]

So it has 3 checks to go through before being successful. First is Spell Resistance. If that fails, then it makes a fortitude save check. After that it checks for poison immunity. If all those on the creature in the area of effect, they will be stunned and blinded.

This info is based on the spell code.

Interesting... and yet, my summon was only sort of dazed, as in, she could still move, but wouldn't attack. She didn't respond to the control henchmen commands, mind you, she just wandered about aimlessly. Basically, she behaved as if blinded, without the actual blindness effect registering(I think? I couldn't see an icon).

I should note that, being a circle 2 spell, it qualifies for re-ignition, so you can stack the spell on critters for twice the stopping power(assuming you're close enough for it to re-fire, which I wasn't, on the video I pm'd you).

A simple gust of wind and it's blewn away

I shall test this as well!

* edit * - That worked! That's one way to counter at least(besides Fort save).

[Snarfy]

... also, if this is not a mind affecting spell, then why does my combat log show the summon rolling her Fort save, then the "Immune to mind-affecting spells" message popping up? (Obviously, if she were immune to whatever is rolling the Fort save, she wouldn't get dazed/blinded/whatever, right?)

Hidden: show

[Dagesh]

It could be she was only blinded but the other effect was stopped?

[Nemni]

EffectBlindness is not stopped by mind immunity.
Also casting the spell with reignite (or just normally) should remove any existing effect, so can't stack em.
For discussing specific spells I would suggest a new thread

[Snarfy]

EffectBlindness is not stopped by mind immunity.
Also casting the spell with reignite (or just normally) should remove any existing effect, so can't stack em.
For discussing specific spells I would suggest a new thread

My bad!

I did narrow it down, however, and when I tried a summon that wasn't Chaotic Good, and had even lower SR, the lesser mind blank worked perfectly, and it did not become blinded by the Cloud of Bewilderment at all. So, yeah, false alarm, it's not a mind blank issue(must be an issue with certain summons from the greater binding list).