Build Questions for "Stealthy Monk"

[Bobbydean]

13 Monk 5 SD 4 Fighter 10 Divine Champion
^ That build has no damage & it's not possible 32 lvls

Damage for a monk comes from either Sneak Damage or High Level Monk progression from your fists.
As I believe already mentioned earlier in the thread, you cannot have it all.

Chad has provided a pretty good middle of the ground build with your initial ask.

I am going to make an AC81 comment. (Which he supports with his comment that he has a lvl 30 "pure" monk that can kill everything except for 1 beastie than nobody can solo anyways)

The best monk & easiest Monk is a pure monk!
16Monk/14 MoLD. If Played right, you won't die & kill everything except for 1 beastie!
This build has 4 more AC than a 25Monk/5SD without wasting an epic feat and another non-epic mobility feat.
To me this is like EPIC dodge w/o spending a single feat on getting it.

The only benefit of SD is just HiPs which is okay because Monk's already have KI Step which makes HiPs less useful than for other builds.

Every other build is just a flavor build that don't perform as well as a 16Monk/14MoLD overall.

Good stuff and thanks for the extra info. Really appreciate everyone taking the time to respond and help me get my build on the right track. That's a very interesting point about HIPS vs Ki Step. I just got Ki step on one of my chars and tried it out. It's basically a cross-map teleport right? Everyone on here speaks about it as if it's pretty much crazy not to get this feat. Was wondering mechanically why it's so good and how it's used in practice in game? Do you remain hidden if you're in stealth mode and you ki-step near an enemy? Would love to hear more about that. Also very interesting about Monk vs MoLD. Probably wouldn't fit the RP concept, but wow, 4 extra AC is very tempting! Wonder how acceptable to "stretch" the rp concept vs the class choices here at BG in order to get the most performance from your build.

[Arn]

Ki Step used to be stupid broken, but they balanced it. It is no longer a cross-map insta-teleport. It is now a medium-range jump with a 30 second cooldown. If you Ki Step within 2 minutes of a prior Ki Step, it uses up 2 or 3 Stunning Fist charges (I don't remember which).

So Ki Step is no longer a must-have feat. It definitely has its uses, though. You can take some short cuts on the map, or close the distance with an enemy really quickly. If you're cornered by a mob, it can help you relocate and flee. Note that you need an unobstructed view to your destination; even a small hill or bump in the terrain can block Ki Step.

Some players think Ki Step is a wasted feat now. Personally, my monks have RP behind their Ki Step, so I usually take the feat. TBH, I don't use it too often, but it can be a convenience.

[qwertyh88]

Ki Steps have 2 important uses for monks:
1) Omg Im surrounded;I am going to die -- Ki Step out and run.
2) Fighting Boss casters -- if Ki Step is timed correctly- it'll prevent whatever spell currently being cast on you from working by disrupting the spell-casting animation

Those 2 things HiPS can do also.

Essentially everything KI Step can do with the exception of quicker travel & getting to places not normally accessible like behind locked door or places that require pass through walls -- HiPS can do and do it easier, and HiPs allows for sneak attacks. But we're talking about a non-sneak monk right?

For a non-sneak monk, HiPs have value ins:

Easier, less thinking play especially when you are in trouble.

But what's the downside?

Lower damage, less AC, less spell resistance, less skills points (since H/MS takes up a lot of skills), less choices on gear (since with HiPS you are stuck with H/MS gears), less monk feats like Blazing Aura, weak Monk abilities like stunning fist & duration of fiery fists etc..

When I weigh it like this, to me, it's heck no. HiPS on non-sneak monk is just dumb.

But then if you RP -- everything is fair : D --like a commoner.

[Bobbydean]

Ki Steps have 2 important uses for monks:
1) Omg Im surrounded;I am going to die -- Ki Step out and run.
2) Fighting Boss casters -- if Ki Step is timed correctly- it'll prevent whatever spell currently being cast on you from working by disrupting the spell-casting animation

Those 2 things HiPS can do also.

Essentially everything KI Step can do with the exception of quicker travel & getting to places not normally accessible like behind locked door or places that require pass through walls -- HiPS can do and do it easier, and HiPs allows for sneak attacks. But we're talking about a non-sneak monk right?

For a non-sneak monk, HiPs have value ins:

Easier, less thinking play especially when you are in trouble.

But what's the downside?

Lower damage, less AC, less spell resistance, less skills points (since H/MS takes up a lot of skills), less choices on gear (since with HiPS you are stuck with H/MS gears), less monk feats like Blazing Aura, weak Monk abilities like stunning fist & duration of fiery fists etc..

When I weigh it like this, to me, it's heck no. HiPS on non-sneak monk is just dumb.

But then if you RP -- everything is fair : D --like a commoner.

Thanks. Trying to get familiar with terms. What constitutes a "sneak monk" to you? Also, is Blazing Aura worth getting (or can you even get it) if you are dex based? Also, if you have maxed out hide and MS skills, do you really still require gear that boosts it further - that would be an important factor.

[Steve]

There are 2 kinds of sneaks, in my opinion: those built to combat Mobs, and those built to combat other PCs. Considering the excellent gear now available at NPC merchants AND can be acquired through IG, IC RP between your toon and other merchant/trader PCs with high Appraise at rock bottom prices, even with 33 points in H/MS plus said gear, you will almost always be a successful sneak against mobs.

PCs are another thing, since many "spotter" PCs can reach 99 Spot or Listen.

A stealthy Monk 20 / Assassin 10 is a winner of a Build. You max Wisdom for AB, AC and DCs on Stunning Fist attack, and then make your own choice for how much to put in Dexterity in relation to other Abilities you may or may not want to emphasize. Like, decent Strength (STR 12) is good to have, since there is Loot to be had young adventurer!!!

The above build is a late bloomer, however. You can do the same with a Monk 25 / Shadowdancer 5, and get HiPS much, much earlier.

Blazing Aura is always worth it if you have 20+ Monk levels.

[qwertyh88]

Thanks. Trying to get familiar with terms. What constitutes a "sneak monk" to you? Also, is Blazing Aura worth getting (or can you even get it) if you are dex based? Also, if you have maxed out hide and MS skills, do you really still require gear that boosts it further - that would be an important factor.

I am using Non-sneak as having no significant amount of sneak damage.

Refer to the bible of BGTSCC - Blazing Aura cannot be had in a dex build.
https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Blazing_Aura

With just maxed 33 Hide/MS -- it depends on the monster's stats. Against a fighter type monster, it should be plenty -- against a rogue type monster -- it's not.
To have about 100% HiPs success rate against all mobs -- one needs Hide/MS to be in the 60s for those times when you roll a 1 and the enemies roll a 20.

[Bobbydean]

Well, here's the draft I have from builder so far. This is a M20, R5, SD5 build to be compared with a M25, SD5 build.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?320489


Note that I used Moon elf in order to get the dex bonus and keen senses. If you used human you'd have extra skill points and an extra feat. Also note that I couldn't put in the custom flaming fist/blazing aura type feats b/c they didn't show up in builder, but I'd say assume both builds would include them as needed.


Here's what I see are the pros and cons vs 25 monk, 5 SD. Let me know if I'm missing anything:

PROS:

- You get full UMD to 33, so can cast any scroll, use any device (I think?). This seems like a huge plus, but let me know if it's impractical in some way.
- You get an extra 3D6 Sneak dice (not too bad as an extra - definitely doesn't make your build based around sneak attacks, but can't hurt when you do get the drop on a mob.
- Get a decent disable device score - not maxed, but with other build, you don't get this skill.

CONS:
-Miss 5 levels of Monk Spell Resist
- You get 2D10 of Unarmed strike damage instead of 3D8 - not the end of the world.

So at first glance it looks like you're trading
- 5 SR and 3D8 dmg in exchange for getting
- 3D6 Sneak dice, max UMD and middling Disable device but dropping base damage to 2D10.

Worth it? Hard to say. What are you thoughts? Also, let me know if I'm missing another major trade-off.

[Theodore01]

It's more like you're trading
- 5 SR , less dmg, -1 AC -1feat
in exchange for getting - 3D6 Sneak dice in your first flurry from stealth or if flanking, (max UMD and middling Disable device)


- Why all the even stats ?
+3 stat items are quite easy to get. (a belt with str+con +3 is in store) There are a few +4 ones in stores (gloves dex, str, cha and helms int, wis).

- you forgot to take expose weakness !!!


- maxed umd ? It can be useful sure, from my experience i barely need/use it at all. Umd 13 is a must have to use wands/class restricted items !

-Spellcraft 5,10,15,... is always good to have.

Divine Seeker or Guild Thief instead of rogue could also be an option.

[Bobbydean]

It's more like you're trading
- 5 SR , less dmg, -1 AC -1feat
in exchange for getting - 3D6 Sneak dice in your first flurry from stealth or if flanking, (max UMD and middling Disable device)


- Why all the even stats ?
+3 stat items are quite easy to get. (a belt with str+con +3 is in store) There are a few +4 ones in stores (gloves dex, str, cha and helms int, wis).

- you forgot to take expose weakness !!!


- maxed umd ? It can be useful sure, from my experience i barely need/use it at all. Umd 13 is a must have to use wands/class restricted items !

-Spellcraft 5,10,15,... is always good to have.

Divine Seeker or Guild Thief instead of rogue could also be an option.

Thanks for the reply. Didn't think about how stats will work once I have gear - very new to server so getting a feel of how high magic items go on this server. Expose weakness eh? Lot of people have mentioned it, guess it's a must-have.

Looks like I'm going off what everyone seemed to recommend for me and go 25M 5SD, seems like the closest to what I'm looking for - now to just tweak some feats here or there.

[PiaMango]

A while back I made a comparison on the variation of high rogue / assassin builds with my opinion on how big the trade offs are. Note for the spare epic feat I chose blinding speed, but there are other options. Thinking back now I would probably consider the difference in sneak dice a big trade off (red), rather than orange.

Note, to get epic dodge on 16R/3Body guard/3Monk/8Assassin you have to delay HIPs until level 30, meaning its only really a RCR 100% period sort of build.

For saves differences I ignored reflex, since your reflex save is high enough already having extra doesn't really matter.



11 Monk doesn't provide you much mechanically apart from movement speed and +2ac. Greater flurry doesn't add to the number of attacks in your first flurry unless you're under the effects of haste, and the sacrifice in sneak dice is substantial. That being said, being able to walk around stealthed at the same speed normal characters run is fun.

[AC81]

Normal monks (M30) can play like stealth monks. They can still max hide/ms. They can get close to their target, drop a flurry of stunning fists and then ki step to safety. I’m guessing you’d want to be lawful evil though ...
My fav character is a M30, I just load up on uni save items. With great AC, 40SR, very good/excellent saves these guys are tough. You’ll get around 40 AB after gear but before any buffs. That looks bad and people will tell you it’s too low but it really isn’t. You’ll have 8 apr, with 4 coming at highest AB, you’ll do ~35 per hit with blazing aura and fiery fist and every aspect of your damage crits. Then you’ll likely get another 6 ab from expose weakness. Most mobs are dead by the two round mark anyway.
Wisdom and stealth monks eat casters alive. A standard trick is to ki step right next to casters, drop a couple of DC37 stuns and then beat them to death with your adamantine fists.
Monks are great at pvp also, they’re generally always ready to go. No buffing required. Of course, they aren’t the kings of pvp but they will beat lots of builds out there.
I guess it just comes down to what style of character you want. From my experience, if you try to excel at too many things, you’re usually doing quite a few of them badly.

[Bobbydean]

Normal monks (M30) can play like stealth monks. They can still max hide/ms. They can get close to their target, drop a flurry of stunning fists and then ki step to safety. I’m guessing you’d want to be lawful evil though ...
My fav character is a M30, I just load up on uni save items. With great AC, 40SR, very good/excellent saves these guys are tough. You’ll get around 40 AB after gear but before any buffs. That looks bad and people will tell you it’s too low but it really isn’t. You’ll have 8 apr, with 4 coming at highest AB, you’ll do ~35 per hit with blazing aura and fiery fist and every aspect of your damage crits. Then you’ll likely get another 6 ab from expose weakness. Most mobs are dead by the two round mark anyway.
Wisdom and stealth monks eat casters alive. A standard trick is to ki step right next to casters, drop a couple of DC37 stuns and then beat them to death with your adamantine fists.
Monks are great at pvp also, they’re generally always ready to go. No buffing required. Of course, they aren’t the kings of pvp but they will beat lots of builds out there.
I guess it just comes down to what style of character you want. From my experience, if you try to excel at too many things, you’re usually doing quite a few of them badly.

Interesting. Thanks for the feedback. You seem to be very pro-Wisdom based Monk. I know chad did a good job earlier, but you can elaborate on your opinion of pros/cons of Wisdom based, vs Dex based monks and why you prefer either? Thanks!

[chad878262]

A while back I made a comparison on the variation of high rogue / assassin builds with my opinion on how big the trade offs are. Note for the spare epic feat I chose blinding speed, but there are other options. Thinking back now I would probably consider the difference in sneak dice a big trade off (red), rather than orange.

@PiaMango just wanted to say I like what you did with your spreadsheet. I didn't do a spreadsheet, but similarly compared many options when I built my monkish rogue (or roguish monk?) I also agree with your assessment the trade off in sneak dice is HUGE. Having 14d6 sneak dice with 5 sneak attacks out of HiPS is what allows you to down any epic caster mob in the first flurry and getting rid of casters is the priority for any sneak attack character (cuz their saves suck and their HP are pretty bad too). Your speed (from monk and/or bodyguard) makes melee mobs a non-issue for you to hit and run, but if you do not take out a caster in the first flurry there is a pretty good chance you won't survive to go in to HiPS.

Note, to get epic dodge on 16R/3Body guard/3Monk/8Assassin you have to delay HIPs until level 30, meaning its only really a RCR 100% period sort of build.

If you are underdark and have access to Reili's Belt of Mischief with max Bluff you can manage. This is how I leveled mine to 30, go lucky finding the feint belt when he was level ~14. Granted mine was a surfacer, but leveled when surface PC's were allowed to level in Kro's / Ohgrenn's where Feint actually works very well. Without access to that area I would agree getting this build to 30 on the Surface would be absolutely BRUTAL! Unless you like leveling by RP'ing at the campfire or fishing I guess.

I will say that the table is somewhat incomplete as it doesn't include *all* options for a rogue/monk hybrid. I actually ran two builds concurrently when I was trying it out, my other option was to go R13/M4/SD3/WD10 (or something like that, I forget the exact split). The point behind this split was more skill points as well as more skill focus feats. So from an RP perspective it was pretty solid. The downside is Whirling Dervish only gains 3d6 sneak dice over 10 levels and the other stuff it gets, while nice doesn't add as much in terms of mechanical efficiency as one might expect. Like Shadow Dancer, Whirling Dervish gives up offense for defense, but does not address the primary issue's a rogue build has (i.e. like all rogue PRCs it is still low on will/fortitude saves). End of the day, if you attack an epic mob you're only getting 10d6 sneak dice and generally won't kill them in the first flurry, thus leaving yourself vulnerable to a spell before you can HiPS.

The value of R16/M3/A8/NWW3 or (more realistically) R19/M3/A8 is that you have more than enough feats and skill points to get whatever is most important to you from an RP perspective while also having the mechanical strength to solo content safely when you understand things like when to utilize HiPS for offense vs. defense, when to execute utilization of blinding strike, how to make use of the unique bombs, etc. It may not always fit the RP a player is looking for and that's fine, you do not need to be the best build if you mostly play in parties. However, in terms of solo play Rogue/HiPS builds are pretty tough because as powerful as HiPS is, the cooldown leaves the PC vulnerable and the very nature of the glass cannon means when vulnerable your day can go bad very quickly. In my experience with stealth builds, the best defense truly is pumping offense as much as possible.

Monk is a bit different because (as AC81 stated perfectly) they can be so defensive as to nearly be immune to most of what an enemy can do. Their AB and damage is solid, but not to the level of the outlined rogue builds because they are not a glass cannon. However, the more non-monk levels you have, the less effective this defense becomes. Just like with AC, Spell Resistance can either be high enough to make it very effective or else it is near-useless. (i.e. SR 30 or less isn't worth all that much, but SR40 is ridiculously good). Hopefully this is not information overload and makes sense.

[Bobbydean]

Chad,

To your points above, do you feel that going M25, SD5 takes away too much from the Monks ability to shrug off most of what NPC's throw at it vs a M30? Can you supplement the lost 5 SR with gear to compensate? Pretty sure I'm going with M25/SD5 but do want to understand what I'd be giving up in terms of defense.

Thanks!

[chad878262]

Chad,

To your points above, do you feel that going M25, SD5 takes away too much from the Monks ability to shrug off most of what NPC's throw at it vs a M30? Can you supplement the lost 5 SR with gear to compensate? Pretty sure I'm going with M25/SD5 but do want to understand what I'd be giving up in terms of defense.

Thanks!

Nah, M25/SD5 is very strong. What it gives up with regard to defense is made up for. Yes AC is lower, but the first attack (highest AB of the round) always misses when you have Epic Dodge that can be better than AC in some cases. The loss of SR is made up for by learning how to HiPS so you can break target lock. The main issue with the M25/SD5 is not defense, it is just that it kills slower than most other Monks (Fiery Fists is a must). M20/A10 variant that Steve suggested is a little different in that you don't get Epic Dodge and lose more monk levels so are a bit weaker in terms of AC and Spell Resistance. In return you get more offense (5d6 death attack dice + chance to paralyze enemy=instant win). The Assassin also allows for you to focus on WIS if you chose instead of DEX, but as a stealth build that may not always be ideal.

All in all, M20/A10 is (in my opinion) a bit more difficult to play without any PC deaths while M25/SD5 would require the player to really screw up or should have no issue staying alive. SR gear does not stack so no supplementing, but really should not be a major issue. If you have decided upon M25/SD5 I say go for it, you won't have any issue with the results.