Advice on Creating a Str Thug Rogue

[qwertyh88]

Looking for the strongest Str Thug/Rogue --able to solo the big boys --

Right now, I am thinking about a 13 Rogue/12 Fighter/5 GFK that goes shield slam & 3 shield APR and dire charge.
http://nwn2db.com/build/?321164

Does a prone character also triggers the necessary conditions for sneak attack? Like that from a tripped enemy by shield charge or Knockdown?
Any other better builds out there?

Thanks.

[chad878262]

I believe many going for Thug type builds recommend just going R16/F14 which gives you 26 BAB for full 6 APR. However, I prefer going for R10/A8/BG4/GFK8. While not having the insane number of feats as the F14 version, this build has HiPS (which is more about defense than offense since not a DEX build) as well as 13d6 sneak dice. For feats, in addition to the requirements (power attack, improved initiative) grab Shield Bash, KD, Shield Charge, Shield Slam and Blinding Strike. You get Cleave at GFK 6 so you have to level Rogue to 5, Assassin to 3, GFK to 6, so that you can then get BG3, then you can take Assassin to 8 by 23 if you want HiPS earlier, or take Rogue to 10 first so you can get Crippling Strike/Epic Precision asap.

Slow to come in to it's own, but at level 30 this is (IMO the strongest overall Thug type). It has multiple ways of delivering sneak damage (if you max bluff and get Reili's Belt of Mischief you can also use Feint, but on the surface it's underwhelming.) Basically you can use HiPS, Shield Slam and Blinding Strike to consistently proc sneak attacks. However Knockdown does not proc sneak attacks (prone does not equal flat footed for some reason). You do have 6/day Ghost Step as a limited use additional method to deliver sneak damage (or for defense, like HiPS).

The only think I guess it misses out on is reaching that 6th APR, but with so many more sneak dice you're overall damage is much better.

A second option is to grab wilderness stalker, but it lacks the synergy of essentially qualifying for blackguard free when you go GFK and getting the third d6 sneak dice at 10 requires more commitment. of course camoflage might be worth it for some folks, but if going (for example) Rogue10/A8/WS7/GFK5 you end up with the same sneak dice. However, this would essentially require you to be a human in order to get all the feats you want (Improved Initiative, Power Attack, Track, Bash, Charge, KD, Slam and Blinding Strike). Also the Blackguard version has the benefit of improving your Shield Slam and Blinding Strike DC by 2 thanks to the aura.

In either case, IMO these are better overall thug builds as compared to fighter/rogue hybrids.

[qwertyh88]

I believe many going for Thug type builds recommend just going R16/F14 which gives you 26 BAB for full 6 APR. However, I prefer going for R10/A8/BG4/GFK8. While not having the insane number of feats as the F14 version, this build has HiPS (which is more about defense than offense since not a DEX build) as well as 13d6 sneak dice. For feats, in addition to the requirements (power attack, improved initiative) grab Shield Bash, KD, Shield Charge, Shield Slam and Blinding Strike. You get Cleave at GFK 6 so you have to level Rogue to 5, Assassin to 3, GFK to 6, so that you can then get BG3, then you can take Assassin to 8 by 23 if you want HiPS earlier, or take Rogue to 10 first so you can get Crippling Strike/Epic Precision asap.

The 13R/12F/5DC compared to a R16/F14 give one extra feat (+2 damage w/ Epic weapons spe or mastery) & 2 extra saves & Divine Wrath
at a measly cost of 1 more sneak die & another rogue bonus feat (which the most important 2, crippling strike & slippery mind are already taken).
The 13R/12F/5DC is just much better imo.

I went 13R/12F/5 GFK instead of 13R/12F/5DC because it had 2 more sneak die, Instant Invis, and Dire Charge to full round out my shield line of feats.
The cost is pretty heafty though with no weapons focus lines & less 2 saves & Divine wrath. But in my mind can be fun, when I am constantly doing:
Charge ->Shield Slam ->Charge combo


I am not sure how HiPs can be played when I am carrying a shield for shield slam & wearing mithral FP? It seems illogical that it would work well & not dex focused and not optimizing for h/ms gears since I am str based?

[chad878262]

The 13R/12F/5DC compared to a R16/F14 give one extra feat (+2 damage w/ Epic weapons spe or mastery) & 2 extra saves & Divine Wrath
at a measly cost of 1 more sneak die & another rogue bonus feat (which the most important 2, crippling strike & slippery mind are already taken).
The 13R/12F/5DC is just much better imo.

Rogue bonus feats can be any feat, so your Rogue 16 bonus feat can be any epic feat you qualify for, thus it is less restrictive the divine champion bonus feat. In addition 1d6 sneak damage translates to an average of ~14 damage per round if 4 of 6 attacks land, not a lot, but more than you get from divine wrath and you get epic weapon spec and melee mastery either way. really it's a matter of +2 saves vs. more damage. The total number of feats is the same. R16 is more damage, DC is more saves.

I am not sure how HiPs can be played when I am carrying a shield for shield slam & wearing mithral FP? It seems illogical that it would work well & not dex focused and not optimizing for h/ms gears since I am str based?

Even if you had zero stealth HiPS will always *always* break target lock which addresses your largest weakness (saves). You don't care that you are not a stealth specialist. Although with proper gear you could still get stealth to mid ~60's you wouldn't, you would probably favor + saves gear over + stealth gear. Also, you will wear Mithril Chainmail over Mithril FP because with mithril FP your evasion doesn't work. Might as well go 14 DEX (18 with +4 gloves or cats grace) and use MCM as you still have really good Reflex saves. Regardless your class split if you have evasion the 1 AC is worth it to have evasion.

[qwertyh88]

Good info, Chad.

Even if you had zero stealth HiPS will always *always* break target lock which addresses your largest weakness (saves). You don't care that you are not a stealth specialist. Although with proper gear you could still get stealth to mid ~60's you wouldn't, you would probably favor + saves gear over + stealth gear. Also, you will wear Mithril Chainmail over Mithril FP because with mithril FP your evasion doesn't work. Might as well go 14 DEX (18 with +4 gloves or cats grace) and use MCM as you still have really good Reflex saves. Regardless your class split if you have evasion the 1 AC is worth it to have evasion.

Hmm, I thought about wearing mithral chainmail (the elven mithral chainmail anyways) for Evasion but the cost for me is 2AC, one from the base armor and another from only +3 Enchantment (Is there a +4 mithral chainmail that can be bought readily that I am not aware of???)

And regarding getting 14 Dex,

My starting stats are:
17 Str
13 dex
15 Con
14 Intel
8 Wis
8 Cha

So getting 14 Dex would mean most likely taking it from Intel --which is marginally okay.

[chad878262]

Hmm, I thought about wearing mithral chainmail (the elven mithral chainmail anyways) for Evasion but the cost for me is 2AC, one from the base armor and another from only +3 Enchantment (Is there a +4 mithral chainmail that can be bought readily that I am not aware of???)

You are a rogue and thus get UMD. If you aren't using a wand of IMA you're kinda missing the point. Any Rogue build is going to (eventually) carry around a dozen or more wands, scrolls, etc. My last main character I played literally carried 17 wands and a 10 stack of a half dozen scrolls at all times. UMD is the balancing ability against the (many) weaknesses of the rogue class. They are powerful glass cannons, but UMD can make that glass far less likely to break! Also, do you have a +4 Mithril Fullplate because iirc there were no enchanted MFP's available in game. There was a +4 mithril breastplate, but that would require even more DEX. In any case, IMA wands are pretty cheap, relatively speaking so I was never bothered by needing to reapply if I got hit with a dispel or 3. However, without HiPS you have no way of dodging the dispel/breaches that will sometimes flow your way all too often. Tough call but worse case, mage armor potions (and scrolls) are stupidly cheap...

And regarding getting 14 Dex,

My starting stats are:
17 Str
13 dex
15 Con
14 Intel
8 Wis
8 Cha

So getting 14 Dex would mean most likely taking it from Intel --which is marginally okay.

Personally I would drop CON to 13 and raise DEX to 15, then you only need a +3 item... Unless of course you have Assassin (to cast Cats Grace) in which case I guess the extra 2 points can go to WIS for your Will saves or CHA for you bluff skill or something. *shrug* In either case 30 HP is not worth as much as those extra 30 skill points IMO (but I was always a skill point (germbag) in all of my builds, to each their own).

[qwertyh88]

You are a rogue and thus get UMD. If you aren't using a wand of IMA you're kinda missing the point. Any Rogue build is going to (eventually) carry around a dozen or more wands, scrolls, etc. My last main character I played literally carried 17 wands and a 10 stack of a half dozen scrolls at all times. UMD is the balancing ability against the (many) weaknesses of the rogue class. They are powerful glass cannons, but UMD can make that glass far less likely to break! Also, do you have a +4 Mithril Fullplate because iirc there were no enchanted MFP's available in game. There was a +4 mithril breastplate, but that would require even more DEX. In any case, IMA wands are pretty cheap, relatively speaking so I was never bothered by needing to reapply if I got hit with a dispel or 3. However, without HiPS you have no way of dodging the dispel/breaches that will sometimes flow your way all too often. Tough call but worse case, mage armor potions (and scrolls) are stupidly cheap...

Originally I was planning on a mithral FP with AC+4 Bracer. I guess it would be okay if dropped Con to 13 to boost DEX to 15 and wear the mithral chainmail w/ +4 AC Bracer. The breakeven point between having evasion to avoid damage and having medium armor with armored resist is having a successful reflex save of 25%. If success rate is higher than 25%, evasion is better.

Personally I would drop CON to 13 and raise DEX to 15, then you only need a +3 item... Unless of course you have Assassin (to cast Cats Grace) in which case I guess the extra 2 points can go to WIS for your Will saves or CHA for you bluff skill or something. *shrug* In either case 30 HP is not worth as much as those extra 30 skill points IMO (but I was always a skill point (germbag) in all of my builds, to each their own).

I love my skillpoints as well. Hence the meh regarding dropping intel. I wanted 15 con, not so much for the extra 30 HP but more for the extra 1 saves on Will & fort.

[qwertyh88]

One last question regarding shield bash, does Melee Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning)) apply to the shield?

[qwertyh88]

And one more after that, what's a reasonable success rate with feint on the surface? 25% success rate on EPIC bosses?

I am thinking of going 13R/12F/5GT to give the character another way to have sneak attack besides shield slam.

Thanks.

[chad878262]

One last question regarding shield bash, does Melee Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning)) apply to the shield?

I do not *think* it does. However, I am uncertain. Perhaps someone who had such a setup could confirm. Mostly because just about everything with Shield Bash has to be applied in a sort of manual/coded way. The lack of comment on Weapon Mastery for Shield Bashing attacks on either the WM feat or the Shield Bash feat page in the wiki makes me think it was not applied.

what's a reasonable success rate with feint on the surface? 25% success rate on EPIC bosses?

Here is a link to a concept build I made (i.e. I was not worried about leveling or ideal class split or feat progression, just focused on Feint optimization). This was for a discussion within QC back in Fall or Winter 2018. As you will see in the build it gets Bluff up to a very high level, but that is because it is based upon building to make use of all of the bluff specific gear that is available in epic shops and elsewhere. http://nwn2db.com/build/?296886

Now, if not going for the most optimal Feinter (like if you don't focus on pumping buff to ridiculous levels) your success rate is probably ~ on Epic bosses. All you have to do is run numbers to figure this out.

Consider that Epic bosses generally have some amount of SPOT skill... Let's pretend it's 45 (i.e. need 65 stealth to be immune to their spot). Now lets say their BAB is 25. That means they get 70+d20 vs. your bluff+d20. So if your modified bluff is 55 than you need to beat their d20 roll by 16 (so any time the boss rolls 5 or higher you can't feint, when they roll lower than 5 you need to roll their die roll+16). On non-spotter mobs if you have investment to hit ~55 bluff you should be able to use it, just expect to have to feint a few times to land it. However, if you gear out to be a bluff master with like 70 bluff it should be very effective (unless bosses are simply marked as immune to feint in some way, which I have no idea on one way or the other).

Have you also looked at the Feat Blinding Strike? It is pretty solid, though with limited sneak dice it may not be as valuable. IIRC the DC is 10 + sneak dice + 1/6 Rogue levels + 1/6 Character level. So for your R13/F12/GT5 it would be 10+10+2+5 = 27. Cooldown is 45 seconds, but requires one feat instead of 2 (CE+Feint) and unless you focus on pumping bluff with equipment and/or feats feint will be really underwhelming.

[qwertyh88]

Great context Chad. I got an overall feel of the trade offs & gains.

I think what works for me ultimately is a 13R/12F/5DC.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?321164

Thanks for the insights & the discussion.