Northlander Hewing and Dual-Wielding/Ranger discussion

[AlfarinIcebreaker]

Hey guys,

I've been off for awhile and am now thinking of making a new melee Ranger toon.

I saw that NH has been altered from it's original implementation. I was wondering the following:

Does STR bonus apply equally to both weapons, i.e. main and off-hand? For example, if my character has 30 STR, that's +10 modifier. Do I get +10 damage to both weapons or +10 to main hand and +5 to off hand?

Do critical hit damage calculations now work as intended? I remember that crits didn't work correctly in the "old" version.

And last, what and how many attacks are removed when dual-wielding and having NH active? I suppose I would end up with 8 attacks per round, down from 12, but in which sequence?

Thanks and regards!

[chad878262]

Does STR bonus apply equally to both weapons, i.e. main and off-hand? For example, if my character has 30 STR, that's +10 modifier. Do I get +10 damage to both weapons or +10 to main hand and +5 to off hand?

It applies equally as a flat bonus.

Do critical hit damage calculations now work as intended? I remember that crits didn't work correctly in the "old" version.

Kinda fixed in that the max damage component was removed. Chambordini changed it as can be seen in the wiki: https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title ... der_Hewing The AB penalty and max weapon damage components were removed, so now it is a flat bonus STR damage with an AC penalty and a small chance for an added effect based upon damage type.

And last, what and how many attacks are removed when dual-wielding and having NH active? I suppose I would end up with 8 attacks per round, down from 12, but in which sequence?

I once posted that it was the attacks at end of sequence and another player came along and corrected that the attacks lost were always from the main hand, not the off-hand (so in this case if also using OTWF you may want your better weapon in the offhand.) So with 12APR it would go:

Flurry 1 - MH, MH-5, OH,
Flurry 2 - OH-5, OH-10, OH-15
Flurry 3 - OH-20, OH-25

Note I can't confirm this as I never tested it out. Just calling out that a player that was playing a TWF character with NH posted that this is how his combat log showed it.

[AlfarinIcebreaker]

Thanks for the exhaustive answer Chad!

[Okan]

I believe that player Chad mentions might be me. I have a ranger that has 10 attacks per round at the moment with NH and I can confirm it only removes attacks from the main hand sequence which kind is disappointing. I still use it and it provides situational damage boost, against creatures with damage reduction it's pretty nice. Make sure to use the better weapon as your off-hand as much that sounds counter-intuitive.

But I feel like once you get Bane of Enemies and if you have damager per hit buffs like blades of flame active, you actually don't benefit much from NHs damage boost. You will gain 80 ish damage if you focus on your STR, assuming all attacks hit, per round. But if you have decent weapons and bane of enemies, the 4 attacks you have lost makes that amount unless with enemies with high AC/DR.

[AlfarinIcebreaker]

Thanks for further explanations, Okan, good to know. That makes the feat a bit less useful than I originally imagined for such character.

What if you have only Greater Two Weapon Fighting, i.e. 3 off-hand attacks and 6 main attack (assuming BAB of 26), total of 9. Going by the same logic, you would lose 3 main hand attacks at -15, -20 and -25 AB, so effectively you would retain 3x2 attacks of highest AB?

[chad878262]

last ranger I made was R26/P4 with EDM... Benefit of course being it doesn't penalize AC (which is very painful on a STR dual wielder) and doesn't reduce attacks (which as Okan points out for a STR Ranger with Blades of Fury and Bane of Enemies, NH may not increase damage as much as you expect.) There is a downside here too, since you are insanely MAD (will have lowish CON and need a +3 WIS item to cast your Ranger Spells) so certainly not something I would recommend unless it's a relatively experienced player. However, the end result is definitely fun to play with PTWF, Bane of Enemies, EDM and Ranger buffs. Ends up with high 40's AC when fully buffed which is a bit lowish, so UMD is highly recommended so you can apply mirrors/displacement when needed. Otherwise in areas where you can use outdoor hips it's good and most enemies won't survive past one round of 12 attacks that do ~40-50 damage per hit. Any build that does ~500+ damage per round can basically take out any mob in that round. Same concept as the Weapon Master with SD dip builds out there I guess. Insane damage per round with a bit of planning in order to give some defense due to significant weakness in regard to AC and/or Saves.

[AlfarinIcebreaker]

Yeah, but Cavestalker really shines, in my opinion it's practically a mandatory splash. I mean, full BAB, Animal Companion, CL progression, FE progression, broadens HiPS/Camouflage to indoor natural areas, gives access to Tumble (and Spellcraft?), +1 AC and some extra skills. Of course, the caveat is that it requires Darkvision, so you cannot qualify as a surface Elf which is by far the best (surface) race for Ranger.

By the way, how good are custom Animal Companions? I remember that Boar was the best choice (and fitting for an Dwarf, for instance). Are custom companions based on vanilla (mechanically speaking) models or completely reworked?

[qwertyh88]

For Cavestalker/Ranger Class, in my opinion, tiefling is really strong.
From what I have read & tested with classes that have Favored Enemies, Cavestalker favored enemies does not advance ranger favored enemies. As far I can tell, all different classes with favored class don't stack with each other. Still though, dipping 4 levels into Cavestalker is worth it for tumble/spellcraft & 1 AC.

Instead of NH, have you considered Athktatlan Triparite? Reduce mainhand attack to only 3 attacks, but boost damage by 3/4 and AC by 3/4 (haste for 4). It will make the ranger much tankier.

I have a lvl 30 fully buffed boar with 398 HP, 50 AC, 39 AB, that does damage in the 20s/40s with critic, with Fort 18, Reflect 19, and Will 10.
With Enrage Animal, gains another 2 AC and 1 extra attack, but all your attack loses -2 AB. (Good for bosses)

[Okan]

If the favored enemy does not stack -which I did not test for so can't confirm sadly- you can take Combat expertise and Improved Combat Expertise as bonus feats in place of Favored Enemies for Cavestalker.

My pc is a cavestalker and I can say while there are some frustrating things about the features being clunky, it is very much worth taking if you are going full ranger and on a race with darkvision.

[AlfarinIcebreaker]

For Cavestalker/Ranger Class, in my opinion, tiefling is really strong.
From what I have read & tested with classes that have Favored Enemies, Cavestalker favored enemies does not advance ranger favored enemies.

You have tested this? What does this mean for Bane of Enemies feat? That's a very important question.

[chad878262]

unfortunately from what I understand there was/is no way to get FE's to stack. I tested back in my QC days and R21/CS4/HS5 for example none of the FE's stacked with each other. To be fair I'm not sure it would have been a good thing for such a build to have 1 more FE than a pure Ranger would have, but I did argue that since they do not stack Rangers should be able to pick stuff besides FE's. Glad your CS was able to take CE/ICE with the bonus feats, not sure if same applies to Harper Scout or not.

Do note this also impacts Cavalier Paladins who chose to go Harper Scout as those will not stack either if I recall.

[AlfarinIcebreaker]

unfortunately from what I understand there was/is no way to get FE's to stack.

Okay, I assume this also means that Ranger's Bane of Enemies won't affect FE taken by Cavestalker, correct?

[qwertyh88]

Do note this also impacts Cavalier Paladins who chose to go Harper Scout as those will not stack either if I recall.

It's true. I test this. No stacking.

Okay, I assume this also means that Ranger's Bane of Enemies won't affect FE taken by Cavestalker, correct?

I am waiting for 100% RCR to test this out -- but I am inclined to think that Bane of Enemies will work on all Favored Enemies regardless of the class.

[chad878262]

unfortunately from what I understand there was/is no way to get FE's to stack.

Okay, I assume this also means that Ranger's Bane of Enemies won't affect FE taken by Cavestalker, correct?

Good question. a dev would need to look at the code or someone that has it would need to test in game. I'm not sure either way to be honest.