Intrigue RP and the Duchal Court

[DM Golem]

Hi all,

Just a notification that we have posted a new RP Guide on good practice in intrigue RP generally and the Duchal Court particularly. You can find it here: viewtopic.php?f=421&t=72629

[Steve]

The RP Guide is a good post, and helps in efforts to create a true collaborative experience, by outlying the goal and the means to reach it. I think the BGTSCC Community will need time to witness this, directly and indirectly, on all sides, and eventually gain confidence (and hopefully an enjoyable game-play, role-play experience).

Thumbs up.

[Hoihe]

We can understand that this level of trust, and the level of willingness of players to have their characters success rise and fall, may vary from player to player - we have many play styles here on the server and we endeavour to cater to them all. However, intrigue is not one where we can. We would ask if this is not your cup of tea to not invest too heavily in intrigue RP nor participate in intrigue guilds, as in a dynamic persistent world, you cannot be guaranteed control over your character's story nor their impact upon the world, as they do not exist in a vacuum.

It's kind of impossible to play a good aligned character and not wind up involved in intrigue RP.

Is this supposed to be a "If you try to convince the dukes to do X, you consent to assassinations/permadeath?"

[Rain]

From my perspective all of the intriue RP that is occurring only pertains to good / neutral aligned characters anyway. Because the main bulk of the RP lately has been revolving around the dukes and the duchal court. The only place that would involve political standing and progression for evil is Darkhold and Darkhold is only run by 1 specific type of player and faith.

Sure I guess you can argue that evil can "weasel" it's way into duchal intrigue but not everyone wants to suit to that kind of RP / Play Style.

Just my two cents.

[Druchii]

We can understand that this level of trust, and the level of willingness of players to have their characters success rise and fall, may vary from player to player - we have many play styles here on the server and we endeavour to cater to them all. However, intrigue is not one where we can. We would ask if this is not your cup of tea to not invest too heavily in intrigue RP nor participate in intrigue guilds, as in a dynamic persistent world, you cannot be guaranteed control over your character's story nor their impact upon the world, as they do not exist in a vacuum.

It's kind of impossible to play a good aligned character and not wind up involved in intrigue RP.

Is this supposed to be a "If you try to convince the dukes to do X, you consent to assassinations/permadeath?"

I would say that this is a self-explanatory message asking people to respect that the DMs have thought through how their NPCs would react and are attempting to create a naturally responsive environment for you to RP in. That involves an element of risk-vs-reward that anyone who has RP'd seriously would automatically recognise a mile away. Anyone whoever read an adventure book or watched a movie would understand that. Since we all type as a way of communication, I'll bet money everyone has done this at some point.

Saying it is impossible to be good-aligned and not wind up in intrigue is an overly-simplistic statement - I think you know it is wrong but I assume you also meant a good-aligned character that actually wants to effect change through intrigue/politics. Then fair enough but.. you made that character so why is the RP now something you want to carve up into a personal protection bubble? I mean it's fine, so long as your own refusal to get your PCs dirty does not hold everyone else back who plays with them.. and in a DM event you are not in a vacuum - again thats common sense.

I also do not see any indication from that post saying your involvement equates to 'consent' to perma-death. If however someone tries to assassinate you for being an antagonistic force, I would say as a mature and experienced roleplayer - you should be already be aware of that risk and even embracing it. If you cannot handle politics and intrigue.. why did you make a character that simply finds it "impossible" to stay away from an inherently dangerous activity?

I have always kept my personal opinion muted where it comes to people and facing up to IC consequences, but at the end of the day.. if you do not like consequences, then it is best for everyone including you OOC to stick to casual or private RP where the environment is more controlled. If you made a character that simply would not do that - that is something you will have to reconcile, change or adapt to. You cannot have everything your way - that is for single player RPGs.

In short: There's nothing wrong with what Golem posted and from my view everything he said was common sense (no offence everyone). I do not see any small print saying "Do this and we can murder your PC for the lolz out of nowhere". That smarts of paranoia and bad blood that is best resolved privately. Not aired out here.

[Druchii]

From my perspective all of the intriue RP that is occurring only pertains to good / neutral aligned characters anyway. Because the main bulk of the RP lately has been revolving around the dukes and the duchal court. The only place that would involve political standing and progression for evil is Darkhold and Darkhold is only run by 1 specific type of player and faith.

Sure I guess you can argue that evil can "weasel" it's way into duchal intrigue but not everyone wants to suit to that kind of RP / Play Style.

Just my two cents.

This is a given when you look at Baldur's Gate and the Dukes - all good or neutral.

Perhaps the problem is not that the Duchal Court's leadership is not evil, but there's a lack of PCs pushing morally corrupt principles in the court?

Equally, one could argue there should be more NPC courties with nefarious schemes in mind - as I am almost 100% a Underdark player I've no idea what goes on in BG but I would be surprised if during intrigue thee wasnt a bad guy or two somewhere. If not, then there's also the good/neutral factions that may be pushing at one another for more power or influence.

I believe one of the Dukes is an avid supporter of power struggles as I recall, so there's no reason good and neutrals cannot clash over dogma, economic disputes, just wanting more power over the politics etc.

Thayans, Thieves Guild, Umberlee Church, Sharrans, etc they all have reasons to push for things in the political arena. Thayans perhaps being one of the few that can stand there in broad daylight and do it thanks to their monopoly on trading magical items. Note: Flaming Fist rely heavily on magical items, and one could wonder just how much the Thayans help keep the Fist a notch above all other mercs.

Players could represent any number of factions and try pushing for changes to law or for favours that allow under-handed, criminal or even evil activity to thrive. It would however require someone to stake themselves on it for the change and have a character subtle or manipulative enough to do so.

[Xorena]

From my perspective all of the intriue RP that is occurring only pertains to good / neutral aligned characters anyway.

I have seen several players say this, but I don't see anything in Golem's post that says an evil character shouldn't or cannot get involved. Is this a misperception by the player base? I have come back after not playing here for three years so maybe I'm misinformed.

If a lawful evil bureaucromancer wants to roleplay political intrigue I am sure the DMs would find a way to include her and her merry band of murderhobos, scribes and filing clerks.

[Druchii]

From my perspective all of the intriue RP that is occurring only pertains to good / neutral aligned characters anyway.

I have seen several players say this, but I don't see anything in Golem's post that says an evil character shouldn't or cannot get involved. Is this a misperception by the player base? I have come back after not playing here for three years so maybe I'm misinformed.

If a lawful evil bureaucromancer wants to roleplay political intrigue I am sure the DMs would find a way to include her and her merry band of murderhobos, scribes and filing clerks.

Seeing as you play a Red presumably associated with the Enclave, I would say your character is evidence to the contrary - Thayans were listed by the DMs as one of the suggested parties that would be in attendance.

Definite misconception.

[Rain]

From my perspective all of the intriue RP that is occurring only pertains to good / neutral aligned characters anyway. Because the main bulk of the RP lately has been revolving around the dukes and the duchal court. The only place that would involve political standing and progression for evil is Darkhold and Darkhold is only run by 1 specific type of player and faith.

Sure I guess you can argue that evil can "weasel" it's way into duchal intrigue but not everyone wants to suit to that kind of RP / Play Style.

Just my two cents.

This is a given when you look at Baldur's Gate and the Dukes - all good or neutral.

Perhaps the problem is not that the Duchal Court's leadership is not evil, but there's a lack of PCs pushing morally corrupt principles in the court?

Equally, one could argue there should be more NPC courties with nefarious schemes in mind - as I am almost 100% a Underdark player I've no idea what goes on in BG but I would be surprised if during intrigue thee wasnt a bad guy or two somewhere. If not, then there's also the good/neutral factions that may be pushing at one another for more power or influence.

I believe one of the Dukes is an avid supporter of power struggles as I recall, so there's no reason good and neutrals cannot clash over dogma, economic disputes, just wanting more power over the politics etc.

Thayans, Thieves Guild, Umberlee Church, Sharrans, etc they all have reasons to push for things in the political arena. Thayans perhaps being one of the few that can stand there in broad daylight and do it thanks to their monopoly on trading magical items. Note: Flaming Fist rely heavily on magical items, and one could wonder just how much the Thayans help keep the Fist a notch above all other mercs.

Players could represent any number of factions and try pushing for changes to law or for favours that allow under-handed, criminal or even evil activity to thrive. It would however require someone to stake themselves on it for the change and have a character subtle or manipulative enough to do so.

This just revolves back to my statement about "weaseling". While I have no doubts that evil can do it under a political agenda of "what i'm doing is for the best" guilds like the thieves and the Sharrans and the umber-lee church are "weaseling" political power.

Another interesting place for example that is not Darkhold that I feel could aid from this kind of thing Golem is speaking on is the orcs and Urrak Lurra. This is a place where it could be a fun place to push for sudo-political power as well that does not pertain to the duchal court or having to be good / neutral. But suffers the same problem that I mentioned with Darkhold. It pertains to 1 very specific PC RP (orcs). Orcs suffer the same problem that evil does and that is the lack of RP outside of DM events and scheduled meet ups leading in what we have now. Which is a lack of an orc PC community.

[Druchii]

From my perspective all of the intriue RP that is occurring only pertains to good / neutral aligned characters anyway. Because the main bulk of the RP lately has been revolving around the dukes and the duchal court. The only place that would involve political standing and progression for evil is Darkhold and Darkhold is only run by 1 specific type of player and faith.

Sure I guess you can argue that evil can "weasel" it's way into duchal intrigue but not everyone wants to suit to that kind of RP / Play Style.

Just my two cents.

This is a given when you look at Baldur's Gate and the Dukes - all good or neutral.

Perhaps the problem is not that the Duchal Court's leadership is not evil, but there's a lack of PCs pushing morally corrupt principles in the court?

Equally, one could argue there should be more NPC courties with nefarious schemes in mind - as I am almost 100% a Underdark player I've no idea what goes on in BG but I would be surprised if during intrigue thee wasnt a bad guy or two somewhere. If not, then there's also the good/neutral factions that may be pushing at one another for more power or influence.

I believe one of the Dukes is an avid supporter of power struggles as I recall, so there's no reason good and neutrals cannot clash over dogma, economic disputes, just wanting more power over the politics etc.

Thayans, Thieves Guild, Umberlee Church, Sharrans, etc they all have reasons to push for things in the political arena. Thayans perhaps being one of the few that can stand there in broad daylight and do it thanks to their monopoly on trading magical items. Note: Flaming Fist rely heavily on magical items, and one could wonder just how much the Thayans help keep the Fist a notch above all other mercs.

Players could represent any number of factions and try pushing for changes to law or for favours that allow under-handed, criminal or even evil activity to thrive. It would however require someone to stake themselves on it for the change and have a character subtle or manipulative enough to do so.

This just revolves back to my statement about "weaseling". While I have no doubts that evil can do it under a political agenda of "what i'm doing is for the best" guilds like the thieves and the Sharrans and the umber-lee church are "weaseling" political power.

Another interesting place for example that is not Darkhold that I feel could aid from this kind of thing Golem is speaking on is the orcs and Urrak Lurra. This is a place where it could be a fun place to push for sudo-political power as well that does not pertain to the duchal court or having to be good / neutral. But suffers the same problem that I mentioned with Darkhold. It pertains to 1 very specific PC RP (orcs). Orcs suffer the same problem that evil does and that is the lack of RP outside of DM events and scheduled meet ups leading in what we have now. Which is a lack of an orc PC community.

You can call it weasling but I am not sure why you would term it that and consider what the rest of the courtiers do to be something contrary.

My point is simply that I do not see a barrier for evil to do intrigue in the Duchal Court, though I am speaking hypothetically as I do not intrigue with the Dukes as stated.

As far as looking at the reasons for lack of PCs and DM events in evil-aligned locations/factions.. that seems like a separate thread topic. This is a message Golem posted was about how people should react to the intrigue RP run by DMs - case and point being the Duchal Court.

To be honest, if that cannot even go right.. then there's little point discussing potential intrigue events for small locations or the effects of absence on the number of Orcs - or any minority group. From a UD perspective I could also say that Sshamath does not have any politics going on unless it's to do with a Player Request. But it just doesn't really seem like the point of this thread to me.

That is not to shoot down the validity of what you are saying, just that we might not be really trying to talk about the same things.

[Rain]

This is a given when you look at Baldur's Gate and the Dukes - all good or neutral.

Perhaps the problem is not that the Duchal Court's leadership is not evil, but there's a lack of PCs pushing morally corrupt principles in the court?

Equally, one could argue there should be more NPC courties with nefarious schemes in mind - as I am almost 100% a Underdark player I've no idea what goes on in BG but I would be surprised if during intrigue thee wasnt a bad guy or two somewhere. If not, then there's also the good/neutral factions that may be pushing at one another for more power or influence.

I believe one of the Dukes is an avid supporter of power struggles as I recall, so there's no reason good and neutrals cannot clash over dogma, economic disputes, just wanting more power over the politics etc.

Thayans, Thieves Guild, Umberlee Church, Sharrans, etc they all have reasons to push for things in the political arena. Thayans perhaps being one of the few that can stand there in broad daylight and do it thanks to their monopoly on trading magical items. Note: Flaming Fist rely heavily on magical items, and one could wonder just how much the Thayans help keep the Fist a notch above all other mercs.

Players could represent any number of factions and try pushing for changes to law or for favours that allow under-handed, criminal or even evil activity to thrive. It would however require someone to stake themselves on it for the change and have a character subtle or manipulative enough to do so.

This just revolves back to my statement about "weaseling". While I have no doubts that evil can do it under a political agenda of "what i'm doing is for the best" guilds like the thieves and the Sharrans and the umber-lee church are "weaseling" political power.

Another interesting place for example that is not Darkhold that I feel could aid from this kind of thing Golem is speaking on is the orcs and Urrak Lurra. This is a place where it could be a fun place to push for sudo-political power as well that does not pertain to the duchal court or having to be good / neutral. But suffers the same problem that I mentioned with Darkhold. It pertains to 1 very specific PC RP (orcs). Orcs suffer the same problem that evil does and that is the lack of RP outside of DM events and scheduled meet ups leading in what we have now. Which is a lack of an orc PC community.

You can call it weasling but I am not sure why you would term it that and consider what the rest of the courtiers do to be something contrary.

My point is simply that I do not see a barrier for evil to do intrigue in the Duchal Court, though I am speaking hypothetically as I do not intrigue with the Dukes as stated.

As far as looking at the reasons for lack of PCs and DM events in evil-aligned locations/factions.. that seems like a separate thread topic. This is a message Golem posted was about how people should react to the intrigue RP run by DMs - case and point being the Duchal Court.

To be honest, if that cannot even go right.. then there's little point discussing potential intrigue events for small locations or the effects of absence on the number of Orcs - or any minority group. From a UD perspective I could also say that Sshamath does not have any politics going on unless it's to do with a Player Request. But it just doesn't really seem like the point of this thread to me.

That is not to shoot down the validity of what you are saying, just that we might not be really trying to talk about the same things.

I can agree with this, and you have a point. A topic for another rainy day then as maybe this is not the right place and time. But I thank you for sharing your own opinions on my statement honestly.

[Druchii]

This just revolves back to my statement about "weaseling". While I have no doubts that evil can do it under a political agenda of "what i'm doing is for the best" guilds like the thieves and the Sharrans and the umber-lee church are "weaseling" political power.

Another interesting place for example that is not Darkhold that I feel could aid from this kind of thing Golem is speaking on is the orcs and Urrak Lurra. This is a place where it could be a fun place to push for sudo-political power as well that does not pertain to the duchal court or having to be good / neutral. But suffers the same problem that I mentioned with Darkhold. It pertains to 1 very specific PC RP (orcs). Orcs suffer the same problem that evil does and that is the lack of RP outside of DM events and scheduled meet ups leading in what we have now. Which is a lack of an orc PC community.

You can call it weasling but I am not sure why you would term it that and consider what the rest of the courtiers do to be something contrary.

My point is simply that I do not see a barrier for evil to do intrigue in the Duchal Court, though I am speaking hypothetically as I do not intrigue with the Dukes as stated.

As far as looking at the reasons for lack of PCs and DM events in evil-aligned locations/factions.. that seems like a separate thread topic. This is a message Golem posted was about how people should react to the intrigue RP run by DMs - case and point being the Duchal Court.

To be honest, if that cannot even go right.. then there's little point discussing potential intrigue events for small locations or the effects of absence on the number of Orcs - or any minority group. From a UD perspective I could also say that Sshamath does not have any politics going on unless it's to do with a Player Request. But it just doesn't really seem like the point of this thread to me.

That is not to shoot down the validity of what you are saying, just that we might not be really trying to talk about the same things.

I can agree with this, and you have a point. A topic for another rainy day then as maybe this is not the right place and time. But I thank you for sharing your own opinions on my statement honestly.

[flipside43]

Where you do think the bulk of the court intrigue RP comes from if not stimulated among the good-evil axis? As someone involved in court intrigue play, I can tell you there are definitely evil-aligned characters involved as well as more shady neutral characters.

Besides, the main point I see from the statement is to be a mature player and keep it IC. If you are getting offended and upset out-of-character, maybe intrigue play isn't for you. Playing intrigue at court or otherwise isn't a play-to-win scenario and if you are treating it that way, you are doing it wrong. It needs to be a collaborative dynamic involving other players and trusting that they will respect the common element shared with all intrigue RP. The veil is thin and easily unraveled with carelessness.

[DM Golem]

From my perspective all of the intriue RP that is occurring only pertains to good / neutral aligned characters anyway.

I have seen several players say this, but I don't see anything in Golem's post that says an evil character shouldn't or cannot get involved. Is this a misperception by the player base? I have come back after not playing here for three years so maybe I'm misinformed.

If a lawful evil bureaucromancer wants to roleplay political intrigue I am sure the DMs would find a way to include her and her merry band of murderhobos, scribes and filing clerks.

Its based on an assumption about character's motives by people who can't see character sheets, usually.

[DM Golem]

The only place that would involve political standing and progression for evil is Darkhold and Darkhold is only run by 1 specific type of player and faith.

Darkhold is one. Roaringshore, Soubar, Nashkel and Sshamath are others.