Death vs PvP Death

[Druchii]

So here's a question for y'all - the mind-wipe from PVP death and how we reconcile that with.. no mindwipe during a grind for instance. Or an event unless stated.

Should we always RP a mindwipe after we are raised for consistency, or should we treat it like a "potential side effect" with no guarantee of happening to deal with the inconsistency.

I ask because I recently consented to being assassinated, but was then raised, and the motivation IC was to wipe my mind and remove the memory that led to various PCs being at each other's throats.

Obviously I agreed to it because Go Drow but I did get to thinking later - should this be considered a valid tactic? Can people just mind erase by killing and raising?

If that were so, do we RP as if there's no guarantee that a Raise Dead/True Resurrection will work? That every time is technically a dice roll even if OOC we know its always player choice barring perma strikes? Do we role-play that there's a chance of the person remembering nothing, and it may not solve anything but OOCly know it will (can it then be valid if it relies on OOC knowledge that only PCs are effected)?

If I missed it in the rules my apologies, I just know other servers tend to utilise that attitude - death leads to memory clouding regardless of the source. Then they obviously vary additional penalties depending on how hardcore they are or just take different views.

I am curious to know for future reference.

NB: For the people involved, our events stay canon and this is not a stab at you or to undermine anything we've done - I am happy with the way it panned out as you know and was informed for the motivation behind it and I knew it was acceptable within the rules. This is just my thoughts going forward as I cannot actually reconcile this from a RP perspective.

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

PvP Amnesia ruling is an OOC mechanic meant to prevent neverending vendettas with all the drama and headache for DMs following. It is not to be treated as a mysterious way the weave works so no consitency is needed, really. Amnesia doesn't extend anywhere beyond PvP.

[Druchii]

PvP Amnesia ruling is an OOC mechanic meant to prevent neverending vendettas with all the drama and headache for DMs following. It is not to be treated as a mysterious way the weave works so no consitency is needed, really. Amnesia doesn't extend anywhere beyond PvP.

I cannot say I was expecting someone to turn around and say that. So in your view then, if PC A knows that their issue with another PC took place in the last 24 hours, they can kill them, raise them, delete 24 hours and it's a job well done - logical and premeditated. If its not a PC, it won't work.

Edit: Also I will point out that if there's no need for consistency, that does essentially mean that its a valid RP tool and can be done IC without any issues so long as PvP in general is consented to. I just find it so jarring that if it isnt in PvP and you are raised - you remember everything just fine. One would think you'd want to streamline something like that for immersion's sake.

[Xorena]

Is there not some wizard enchantment spell that would work in this case? I'm not the expert on that.

The actions you describe I would personally consider metagaming. If you die, unless you get a raise through divine intervention then you're dead. It's supposed to be a rare occurrence, not a free trip to the inn and a convenient way to forget about the last day.

You want to forget about the last 24 hours? Go on a bender through several bars.

[Druchii]

Is there not some wizard enchantment spell that would work in this case? I'm not the expert on that.

The actions you describe I would personally consider metagaming. If you die, unless you get a raise through divine intervention then you're dead. It's supposed to be a rare occurrence, not a free trip to the inn and a convenient way to forget about the last day.

You want to forget about the last 24 hours? Go on a bender through several bars.

Well in fairness there was a very powerful Favoured who stepped in - but as I stated I gave consent OOC and honestly the event in question isn't what I am getting at. There was also a reason as to why my character's memory was wanted gone and a tavern crawl would not have worked - my character was murdered, he did not want assisted suicide and free revive

The point I am driving for though is that whilst the rule makes sense on why it is there - it IS part of the role play that takes place and therefore it should be logical and consistently applied so as to not appear silly. At the moment, I cannot help but feel it is silly (and potentially meta-gaming) to have PCs using memory wipes from PvP as part of their RP and IG decision-making.. but then cannot do the same if they want an NPC to forget. How does your character (regardless of PC/NPC status) know that killing someone robs them of their memory unless its actually a thing right? Are they just gambling on the chance (but know OOC its 100% because its a player controlling the now-dead character) and risking a kill to do it - which I agree is a big deal and an extreme way to solve a problem, but in a hypothetical situation lets just accept it happened and there was reason and they were happy with the risk that 'might' not work or the resurrection 'might' fail.

This is why I feel its worth a look at how death should be role played because it does happen a lot - death that is. The simplest solution would be role playing your resurrection involving memory loss as the norm, regardless of if you were PK'd or grinding. Another would be to consider the memory loss a purely OOC feature that does not get included in the RP - it is just a thing and everyone awkwardly accepts it. Unless you die on a solo grind and then its super easy to hand-wave

Death has always been one of those difficult things to justify and sometimes hand-waving it OOC is done because its easiest. If that is what BG generally goes for that's fine, but it then sounds like PCs should not be killing other PCs specifically to induce memory-loss but rather go for a full kill to solve the problem or find an alternative. If not, then I still think making death a mind-fuddler across the board is the best course of action to take.

Thoughts?

[Steve]

This is how I play it in 99% of cases both PvE and PvP death: on revival, my PC realizes they were wounded to near death, and, they have been divinely returned “to service” to the Diety they worship. Essentially, my PC’s God wanted them alive, and through unknown direction, made it so. Since I don’t play faithless toons, it always works as reason!

And don’t question the Gods, right?!?

But with IG and IC Raise Dead, that is self-explanatory, and if my PC was assassinated or was killed in PvP and another PC was witness, my own PC would learn of it, and then accept why they had died.

Amnesia doesn’t have to be forced when it conflicts with awareness from others IC.

[Blackman D]

Amnesia doesn’t have to be forced when it conflicts with awareness from others IC.

yea its really only for 1v1 or 2v2 type cases, once you start getting larger groups it doesnt work as well

as pointed its to stop back and forth vendettas so it implies that everyone on one side has to die for it to go into effect, hence why its harder with larger groups because if one person gets away then they remember everything

[Hoihe]

To start with:

Forgotten Realms is not a grimdark trololol setting like people try to make it to be. It is noble/grim-bright (it is grim/noble depending on which side one is on)to the core, and per definition:
"Now, a bright world is one full of opportunity, of wondrous sights to behold. It doesn't mean that it has to be MLP, it can be dangerous, but your first instinct when looking at a new location should be awe and wonder: people may adventure to save the world, but they leave town with a smile upon their face, eager to see what comes next. The shadow of Risk is largely erased by the glint of Adventure. In a bright world, it's quite possible for people to go on adventure just for the hell of it, since the journey is its own reward. Resurrection, or at least means to heal grave injuries, is usually accessible, to counterbalance the fact that the risks out there are real."

Now with that handled:

The only IC reason for why resurrection should cause memory loss is through the mind sparing itself by locking away traumatic memories. Dying is pretty painful and horrid, therefore the circumstances involving it will become muddled and locked away so that an individual does not relive the moment over and over again when their mind wanders. Even IRL, it's not an uncommon occurrence for people to cope with trauma through selective amnesia - be it just forgetting the pain or outright "skipping" years of their life.

There exist divine spells that heal psychological trauma (https://dndtools.net/spells/book-of-exa ... -ease--48/) of a fairly low level. Therefore, it is not too much of a stretch to assume the deity applies it alongside the raise dead to spare their servant of the horrors.


OOCly, the only reason this exists is to stop the following
A and B get in a fight.
A kills B.
24 hours later B comes back and kills A for killing them.
24 hours later A comes back and kills B for killing them.



It's a similar rule another, sci-fi server I play on uses, although broadened. There it's "Antagonistic actions to your character are canon for duration for the round, and all involved must forget their perpetrator, and the perpetrator may not force anyone to keep the effects of their actions canon. Attempts to do so (to force MaTuRE ConSeQuenCes on someone unwilling) leads to a ban of the offending party." In that server, it exists to permit players to play antagonistic elements without it ruining their characters outside of special events.

Is there not some wizard enchantment spell that would work in this case? I'm not the expert on that.

The actions you describe I would personally consider metagaming. If you die, unless you get a raise through divine intervention then you're dead. It's supposed to be a rare occurrence, not a free trip to the inn and a convenient way to forget about the last day.

You want to forget about the last 24 hours? Go on a bender through several bars.

Players and DMs alike are not permitted to destroy another individual's PC and inflict upon them lasting effects. We're not a grimderp setting.

And if you have difficulty with accepting PCs coming back, don't kill them. Bring them near-death, assume ICly they died and then they recover off-screen (stab a blade to the heart and miss by a few inches, sending the PC into shock that resembles death but not killing them for example.)

Death has always been one of those difficult things to justify and sometimes hand-waving it OOC is done because its easiest. If that is what BG generally goes for that's fine, but it then sounds like PCs should not be killing other PCs specifically to induce memory-loss but rather go for a full kill to solve the problem or find an alternative. If not, then I still think making death a mind-fuddler across the board is the best course of action to take.

True resurrection exists. Death isn't hard to justify. PC goes missing, friends cast True Resurrection after trying to scry after them.

We're not a grimderp setting.

[Planehopper]

I am going to step in here with a reminder to consider forum rules and decorum. These topics go sideways quite often, and I would hate to see a thread locked, or folks endanger their ability to participate here, because they cant resist arguing about the setting.

The OP is about the difference between pvp and pve deaths and how to RP them. Stick with that.

[Druchii]

To start with:

Forgotten Realms is not a grimdark trololol setting like people try to make it to be. It is noble/grim-bright (it is grim/noble depending on which side one is on)to the core, and per definition:
"Now, a bright world is one full of opportunity, of wondrous sights to behold. It doesn't mean that it has to be MLP, it can be dangerous, but your first instinct when looking at a new location should be awe and wonder: people may adventure to save the world, but they leave town with a smile upon their face, eager to see what comes next. The shadow of Risk is largely erased by the glint of Adventure. In a bright world, it's quite possible for people to go on adventure just for the hell of it, since the journey is its own reward. Resurrection, or at least means to heal grave injuries, is usually accessible, to counterbalance the fact that the risks out there are real."

Now with that handled:

What do you mean "Now with that handled"? Are you replying on the wrong thread because I do not recall mentioning anything to do with grim-dark or grim-bright or grim-whatever-in-between. I do not recall this being a topic for an adventurer's guide to the galaxy. I do not see what this comment achieves other than stating what you've stated countless times before.

Not every thread trying to discuss a facet of the server's RP 'etiquette' (if that is even the term, its a poor fit as it suggests someone did something wrong) is a platform for you to preach your personal vision of what things should be. When you want to be able to do that I suggest you join some of the teams that run this server or accept that you play here with other people who are not like you - which can I reiterate for the avoidance of doubt.. is NOT what this thread is about. Stay on topic, its really basic. Not every thread needs to be an opportunity for you to get on a soap box and tell everyone around you how they should role-play, what they should role-play, and which type of role play should not be here. Also, I find it insulting that you slapped "trololol" on the end of it and do not see what people who enjoy a little seriousness did to have you spitting on them. Your post is inflammatory and I believe you've succeeded in that objective with me, congratulations. [/quote]

The only IC reason for why resurrection should cause memory loss is through the mind sparing itself by locking away traumatic memories. Dying is pretty painful and horrid, therefore the circumstances involving it will become muddled and locked away so that an individual does not relive the moment over and over again when their mind wanders. Even IRL, it's not an uncommon occurrence for people to cope with trauma through selective amnesia - be it just forgetting the pain or outright "skipping" years of their life.

There exist divine spells that heal psychological trauma (https://dndtools.net/spells/book-of-exa ... -ease--48/) of a fairly low level. Therefore, it is not too much of a stretch to assume the deity applies it alongside the raise dead to spare their servant of the horrors.

Whilst I appreciate you getting back on topic, and you do make a fair point, you must know you've made a very blanket statement. I assure you it does not apply to any Underdark diety I know of barring Shar to remove painful memories from their followers - if you disagree I do not know what version of the Forgotten Realms you subscribe to beyond that its a world apart from mine - I am sorry but they really just don't seem like the type to cuddle magical pixie horses. [/quote]

OOCly, the only reason this exists is to stop the following
A and B get in a fight.
A kills B.
24 hours later B comes back and kills A for killing them.
24 hours later A comes back and kills B for killing them.

I know why the rule exists as I possess the ability to read. This is not about the OOC motivation for installing a rule, its about keeping things immersive whilst still upholding the rule. I promise I understand both the mechanics and the sensible need to have such a rule - the rule is not being disputed.

(to force MaTuRE ConSeQuenCes on someone unwilling)

Are you aware of how toxic you come across? I hope you do.

Is there not some wizard enchantment spell that would work in this case? I'm not the expert on that.

The actions you describe I would personally consider metagaming. If you die, unless you get a raise through divine intervention then you're dead. It's supposed to be a rare occurrence, not a free trip to the inn and a convenient way to forget about the last day.

You want to forget about the last 24 hours? Go on a bender through several bars.

Players and DMs alike are not permitted to destroy another individual's PC and inflict upon them lasting effects. We're not a grimderp setting.

Assuming consent and perma strikes are ignored, you are absolutely right as far as I am aware. This supports that it could be an IC way of dealing with problems if PCs know that killing someone will wipe their mind - but it only makes sense if then death as a whole should be treated with the same severity regardless of whether it was dealt by a PC or an NPC. Alternatively its hand-waved and cannot be an IC motivation behind a planned murder.

In role play there is no IG differentiation between a player-controlled character and a non-player controlled character. That is why I think its better to take the consistent approach. It does not require a rule change. It doesn't even require a rule when we are just talking about how death/revival RP should be handled.

Also "grimderp setting". I can only imagine how you speak to some players on this server - or do you stick to back-handed remarks aimed at no one in particular to avoid complaints about you behaviour? Genuinely curious actually..

And if you have difficulty with accepting PCs coming back, don't kill them. Bring them near-death, assume ICly they died and then they recover off-screen (stab a blade to the heart and miss by a few inches, sending the PC into shock that resembles death but not killing them for example.)

I think you've missed the mark here or I am misunderstanding you - its not about accepting PCs coming back and I understand that raising the dead is a thing.

Death has always been one of those difficult things to justify and sometimes hand-waving it OOC is done because its easiest. If that is what BG generally goes for that's fine, but it then sounds like PCs should not be killing other PCs specifically to induce memory-loss but rather go for a full kill to solve the problem or find an alternative. If not, then I still think making death a mind-fuddler across the board is the best course of action to take.

True resurrection exists. Death isn't hard to justify. PC goes missing, friends cast True Resurrection after trying to scry after them.

We're not a grimderp setting.

Another example that you did not enter this thread with the intention of being constructive or even helpful - you are here to push your views.

[Planehopper]

That didnt take long did it.