Richard's Big Bulk Baldur's Gate Suggestion Thread

[Druchii]

So, if 6 seconds is current and fine, but 12 seconds is too much to bear, then how about 9 seconds?!?

I'd take it over 12

[chad878262]

I don't agree, Chad. You can build a defensive Rogue...but when I read your response, it is seemingly a SOLOING rogue, that you say suffers. That may be true, and many other Builds suffer when soloing as well, and currently. But a HiPSing Rogue shouldn't be seen, and the mobs should be after the Group's tank, and while distracted, the Rogue DOES take out the spellcaster of the mob group, or humbles the regular mobs while they are focused on the tank.

So the answer is in a party the rogue should stay in stealth until the party whittles down the bosses 5,000,000 HP to around ~250 and then jump out and strike the killing blow? Sounds like what *I* want to play mate!

In all seriousness, HiPS *IS* the Rogue's defense and offense. I would like you to build me this 'defensive rogue'. Seriously. Show me your rogue build that has ~25+ Fortitude and Will saves while still being a rogue. I'll wait.

[Snarfy]

But a HiPSing Rogue shouldn't be seen, and the mobs should be after the Group's tank, and while distracted, the Rogue DOES take out the spellcaster of the mob group, or humbles the regular mobs while they are focused on the tank.

This is all fine in a perfect game world, but only in one where the AI ignores the fact that your HiPS'er is nuking something with sneak attacks... which, of course, the AI does not do Once your sneaky-pants starts lighting things up, 9 times out of 10 the AI will ensure it's primary function is to obliterate your sneaky-pants, as I'm pretty sure(?) the AI likes to go after the highest damage dealer(or is it the squishiest of the bunch?).

I would like you to build me this 'defensive rogue'. Seriously. Show me your rogue build that has ~25+ Fortitude and Will saves while still being a rogue. I'll wait.

I would try, but... I just spent an hour on the builder trying to make a HiPS toon with remotely decent AC. I failed at that, so high saves sneak is out of the question(... and you know how crap I can be with the builder).

[Zeland]

So, if 6 seconds is current and fine, but 12 seconds is too much to bear, then how about 9 seconds?!?

I think this would be a good medium.

Speaking purely from a pvp perspective, the only ways I can see to beat a good ranged HiPs build is either:
a. Invest skill points/gear into detection.
b. Play a mage with a lot of aoe spells.

The problem I have is that with the current timer, a melee build simply can't hit a ranged hipser. They pop up at max range get a few shots off then by the time the melee build chases after them, timer resets and they rinse and repeat. Every so often you may get a lucky hit or two, do to the HiPs player messing up or the buggy system, but even then they can just heal while hiding.

Changing the timer from 6 to 9 would at least give melee builds a couple extra seconds to catch up and maybe get a hit off. That is if the melee build is hasted or uses charge. (Not sure if would make a difference if the range hipser also had haste)

Another alternative is what I said previously.

I wouldn't be opposed to a change to HiPs that makes it so you cannot use potions, heal kits, wands and scrolls though. As that does not make much sense from a rp perspective and is one of the biggest advantages in pvp.

I am well aware the server is not balanced for pvp and there are many builds that have their own niches. I just think it is a bit silly that there are only 2 ways to counter a good HiPs build, both taking a serious investment to do.

[Hoihe]

But a HiPSing Rogue shouldn't be seen, and the mobs should be after the Group's tank, and while distracted, the Rogue DOES take out the spellcaster of the mob group, or humbles the regular mobs while they are focused on the tank.

This is all fine in a perfect game world, but only in one where the AI ignores the fact that your HiPS'er is nuking something with sneak attacks... which, of course, the AI does not do Once your sneaky-pants starts lighting things up, 9 times out of 10 the AI will ensure it's primary function is to obliterate your sneaky-pants, as I'm pretty sure(?) the AI likes to go after the highest damage dealer(or is it the squishiest of the bunch?).

I would like you to build me this 'defensive rogue'. Seriously. Show me your rogue build that has ~25+ Fortitude and Will saves while still being a rogue. I'll wait.

I would try, but... I just spent an hour on the builder trying to make a HiPS toon with remotely decent AC. I failed at that, so high saves sneak is out of the question(... and you know how crap I can be with the builder).

I found that turning ICE on and off affects enemy aggro. So they go for squishy over DPS, considering my DPS is non-existent.

[Snarfy]

Another alternative is what I said previously.

I wouldn't be opposed to a change to HiPs that makes it so you cannot use potions, heal kits, wands and scrolls though. As that does not make much sense from a rp perspective and is one of the biggest advantages in pvp.

Umm, using wands, potions, scrolls, poisons, or bombs ALL break stealth already... what are we asking for here exactly? That they cant be used by a toon that is in his HiPS timer? Healing kits can be used while in stealth of course(which is silly, I agree, but no self respecting sneak with 10 - 12 Str will be able to carry many ), but how is that different than any 50+ AC <insert class here> that's getting swarmed by umpteen mobs being able to bandage themselves back up from the brink of death?

(ps. In my 10 years of playing a HiPS toon, I have never carried heal kits with him)

[Stehl]

My very first character, my main, is a rogue with HIPS, and it was awful to level her brand new to the server. Even in groups, it felt like I was just tagging along where my sole contribution was picking locks that everyone can and did just smash anyway, or dismantling traps that don't even phase thick classes, because my ability to do damage was extremely limited. Once I got HIPS, the damage slowly got viable, because, honestly, positioning isn't even a sure thing. There's too many times where I've been sitting behind something doing 0 sneak attacks because for some reason it didn't register me as flanking. HIPS at least makes it reliable.

This is the kind of response I want to see because almost every post ignores the fact that in theory sneak attacks should be very easy to get in a party situation. While I actually do have an understanding of stealth and the like, there's so little talk about using the mechanic without HiPS that it's easy to forget that this game is a buggy nightmare. And unfortunately that's not something that's fixable to my knowledge.

But seeing arguments that it's balanced because of the fact that you can't solo multiple mobs at once, that you need it to cheese out DM events, or that it's balanced because of the lower carrying capacity that a low str high dex character has is ridiculous. Classes are supposed to have weak points because this is a game designed for party play, where those weaknesses are filled out by the fact that other players are building a character. While NWN2 is much more limited on the design front for filling in specific weaknesses because you're not guaranteed to be consistently playing with the same people, it's still very possible to build a character that does not function in a solo capacity and only shines with multiple allies. A pure tank might be able to whittle down a same level monster eventually, but it's going to take forever. A pacifist style caster that only helps their allies can't kill an enemy at all. Yet these kinds of characters are completely invaluable to a party despite their lack of murderhobo power.

A rogue already has very few weaknesses because of their massive skill pool and their rogue tricks. Don't like the tricks you can pick? Take a feat! 3/4 AB? Yeah that's a pain unless your opponent is flat-footed in some capacity, but hitting with two attacks that do several d6 free damage is nothing to sneeze at if you can get the flank despite the crazed limitations of the game engine. No magic and low CL for gishes? You're one of two base classes that gets UMD as a class skill, your limit to casting is what you can find/afford, who cares what your caster level is at the end of the day. D6 HP? That'll always be a problem. That's rough.

HIPS removes most of these weaknesses entirely. Even if you're caught off guard you can simply stealth, walk away, and pop every buff you have before coming back to rip the first enemy's throat out. Who cares about AB when your opponent is always going to be flatfooted against your opening flurry? For average joe dual-wield, that's probably three or four and unless your target is decked out to the point of ludicrousness they're going to get hit. The lack of dodge AC and Dex AC is an enormous vulnerability for any build, even the tankiest plate wearer. And monsters tend to not exactly have the benefit of full plate and a tower shield.

Where it really breaks open is when a Cheesosaurus Rex comes along with monk levels. It turns out Flurry of Blows is insanely powerful in conjunction with ANY CLASS OTHER THAN MONK. It's very, very easy for dual kamas to get to the point where you can dish out thirteen attacks a round, which means your opening sneak attack flurry is a whopping five attacks. At any appropriate level of difficulty, your target is dead unless they're immune to sneak attacks, which is bypassed by one of the best and easiest epic feats to get in the game for rogue and even at half sneak attack damage your target is very likely to still die instantly.

You can do that every six seconds. Any living enemy that can survive the 400 damage they took just lost ten strength, might be paralyzed, and is wondering how a d4 weapon just did 80 damage a hit. Any skeleton just said "Hey I just took 200 damage in one round from a thing I should be immune to. Where'd they go?"

That said, that is a cheese build designed to completely exploit the attacks per round you can get off monk. But three sneak attacks in the opening flurry is easily obtainable even on a 3/4 BAB character. They're hitting any cloth or dodge styled monster and probably landing at least two if not all three on a high AC target anyways. And then you fade away and get to do it again. And again. And again. If you're being Leeroy Jenkins? You're going to fail on that style character. But anybody who understands how flurries, stealth, and sneak attacks work is going to be able to trivialize all the content in the game that doesn't have over 300 hp.

[Snarfy]

"You don't need to heal if you never get hit." - Dwarven Defender

Exactly... not getting hit is kind of the point of playing a sneaky-pants, right? These HiPS "suggestion" threads are a riot (and not at all biased, either way!).

Sooo, can I start making suggestions about increasing the cool down timer on all melee builds' feats yet? Or, how about increasing the spell casting time for mages and clerics? Fair is fair, after all. Balance!

[Stehl]

"You don't need to heal if you never get hit." - Dwarven Defender

Exactly... not getting hit is kind of the point of playing a sneaky-pants, right? These HiPS "suggestion" threads are a riot (and not at all biased, either way!).

Sooo, can I start making suggestions about increasing the cool down timer on all melee builds' feats yet? Or, how about increasing the spell casting time for mages and clerics? Fair is fair, after all. Balance!

I can't decide if my warnings breathe life into the toxicity, or if I am just Ms Cleo with the psychic connection.

I would really rather not have this whole mess become circular. I'd really rather not have to lock a thread because of hyperbole leading to frustrated feelings, and flippancy leading to folks being rubbed the wrong way.

Try to stick with your opinions directly. I would almost guarantee you that none of these changes will be made on a whim. Hips isnt something to adjust from a flight of fancy. RCR changes are an admin decision. Arguing about it until you dislike one another isnt going to change anything.

[Snarfy]

~ snip ~

HIPS is completely broken because of the fact that you mechanically stop existing because all you have to do is back up, hit the button, and then you're fine.

Umm... no. You do not stop mechanically existing. Don't believe me? Go roll up a HiPS toon and try to stop mechanically existing in front of the Gullykin Necrolord.

Honestly people, if you don't know about stealth mechanics, please try and learn. HiPS is so easy to shut down it's not even funny. And if you can't figure it out, GO ACTUALLY PLAY A SNEAK for a month, and you will.

If at any point you do decide to make a HiPS character and learn first hand, let me know, and I will gladly log at least 3 builds to OOC'ly show you how fundamentally incorrect you are on it not existing.

[Zeland]

Another alternative is what I said previously.

I wouldn't be opposed to a change to HiPs that makes it so you cannot use potions, heal kits, wands and scrolls though. As that does not make much sense from a rp perspective and is one of the biggest advantages in pvp.

Umm, using wands, potions, scrolls, poisons, or bombs ALL break stealth already... what are we asking for here exactly? That they cant be used by a toon that is in his HiPS timer? Healing kits can be used while in stealth of course(which is silly, I agree, but no self respecting sneak with 10 - 12 Str will be able to carry many ), but how is that different than any 50+ AC <insert class here> that's getting swarmed by umpteen mobs being able to bandage themselves back up from the brink of death?

(ps. In my 10 years of playing a HiPS toon, I have never carried heal kits with him)

Fair enough. I don't have much experience with HiPs so I am just speaking from what I have seen and heard. With that said, I have 100% seen people use potions while in HiPs and it not break stealth. This is something that is incredibly op, as you can just heal back to full before attacking again. I am just suggesting that it not be possible to use those items while in stealth.

[Hoihe]

"You don't need to heal if you never get hit." - Dwarven Defender

Exactly... not getting hit is kind of the point of playing a sneaky-pants, right? These HiPS "suggestion" threads are a riot (and not at all biased, either way!).

Sooo, can I start making suggestions about increasing the cool down timer on all melee builds' feats yet? Or, how about increasing the spell casting time for mages and clerics? Fair is fair, after all. Balance!

I used to be of the opinion that melee characters should have a maximum limit to their attacks before resting when people kept clamoring for making resting very difficult because "mages OP."



As for that "200 damage out of nowhere" - allow me to introduce you the barbarian! 40-50 damage/hit, 6 hits a round, likely hits 4 out of 6, can crit for 2x/3x that depending on weapon with good frequency, good AC, DR, carrying capacity, fast healing. With UMD, can't be shut down by anything.

Sneaker.

A simply buffing the H/MS of mobs makes them useless except for very finicky dances. And DMs love to make mobs require 70+ H/MS in their events.

Even some areas demand H/MS above 60 to manage.

And half the things are immune to sneak attack. the other half are immune to ability drain (rip swashbucklers - your only bonus over fighters).

Oh and for PvP, and spotting rogues?
Buffs that increase Listen:
Clarraudience +10
Amplify +20

Buffs that increase Move Silently:
Pass Without Trace +4


And how does stealth work?
Spotter: d20 + skill bonuses vs d20 + skill bonuses for stealther

If you roll just 1 bit above the stealther's roll, you spot them.

If you're an elf or in detect mode, you roll 6 times/round,



As for potions, I use them frequently. They always break stealth for me. The nuance is, the potion applies before stealth breaks, which is lovely when I HiPSed out with 1 HP and are chugging down potions of Heal to survive.

[Snarfy]

Fair enough. I don't have much experience with HiPs so I am just speaking from what I have seen and heard. With that said, I have 100% seen people use potions while in HiPs and it not break stealth. This is something that is incredibly op, as you can just heal back to full before attacking again. I am just suggesting that it not be possible to use those items while in stealth.

The only way for any HiPSer to use any consumable(besides kits) and remain undetected is if they are also under invisibility. If it's just stealth, literally everything else just breaks it, and 6 seconds is nearly an eternity for said sneak to have his pants down. Unless the player driving is extremely skilled at using follow up consumables, or has some other means of not getting nuked, it's usually a death sentence... this is all relative to other mitigating factors, of course, such as lag, or the opponents skill at playing their own character(assuming we're talking about pvp).

With my wizard, I can shut down a HiPS character with a level 2 spell. With my cleric, maybe a level 4 spell, and certainly a level 9... with any capable ranged build with good detection = dead sneak. Druids and bards likewise have a good chance of stopping a sneak cold. Melee characters will nearly always have troubles if the sneak player knows what they're doing. But, once again, it's all relative to player experience and skill.

[chad878262]

I have 100% seen people use potions while in HiPs and it not break stealth.

Um...If you saw them, then it broke stealth.

Mechanically speaking using any item *besides bandages* does break stealth in NWN2. In fact, the whole reason Expose Weakness was redesigned as it exists today (all hail Valefort, wherever that beautiful frenchy is these days!) is because any custom feat (read not part of vanilla NWN2) will always break stealth. The only stuff that doesn't break stealth is stuff that NWN2 shipped to have them not break stealth. So if you 'saw' someone use a potion while in stealth (still not sure how that works) I have to wonder if it was another game (or at minimum another server).

Stealth is a really tricky mechanic and some of the bugs (or strange design choices) work in a sneaks favor while some others very much do not! *Glares at the bug that causes enemies to chase you down and whack you even after going in to stealth*

[Stehl]

I used to be of the opinion that melee characters should have a maximum limit to their attacks before resting when people kept clamoring for making resting very difficult because "mages OP."



As for that "200 damage out of nowhere" - allow me to introduce you the barbarian! 40-50 damage/hit, 6 hits a round, likely hits 4 out of 6, can crit for 2x/3x that depending on weapon with good frequency, good AC, DR, carrying capacity, fast healing. With UMD, can't be shut down by anything.

Sneaker.

A simply buffing the H/MS of mobs makes them useless except for very finicky dances. And DMs love to make mobs require 70+ H/MS in their events.

Even some areas demand H/MS above 60 to manage.

And half the things are immune to sneak attack. the other half are immune to ability drain (rip swashbucklers - your only bonus over fighters).

Oh and for PvP, and spotting rogues?
Buffs that increase Listen:
Clarraudience +10
Amplify +20

Buffs that increase Move Silently:
Pass Without Trace +4


And how does stealth work?
Spotter: d20 + skill bonuses vs d20 + skill bonuses for stealther

If you roll just 1 bit above the stealther's roll, you spot them.

If you're an elf or in detect mode, you roll 6 times/round,



As for potions, I use them frequently. They always break stealth for me. The nuance is, the potion applies before stealth breaks, which is lovely when I HiPSed out with 1 HP and are chugging down potions of Heal to survive.

The only problem being that getting spot and listen isn't as easy as it's made out to be. Spot and Listen aren't class skills for most classes, so if you don't take a class that can get it AND have Able Learner you need to blow a ton of points on it just to get 15+ from skill points. Wisdom isn't exactly a major stat for most classes that don't use it for their class in some manner and it's not enough to close the gap. Six detections a round isn't going to cut it if you can't get above a 40 when the other person is seriously considering getting a sixty on stealth in order to not be seen in some zones.

And barbarian is very powerful, though technically rage should prevent them from doing most things that require complex actions or thought like UMD. NWN2 is very forgiving on certain things that shouldn't be possible on the tabletop. On a similar note, stealth should also be getting significant minuses for doing it directly in front of somebody in broad daylight. It's not magic, it's crouching aggressively in shadows until you can get behind somebody.

In ACTUAL game terms though, yeah a barbarian is rough. But "good" AC doesn't mean much much when your dex and dodge are negated, you're shieldless, and you lose AC from raging. You can't be flanked, but that doesn't apply to stealth. You still lose your dex and dodge because uncanny dodge doesn't work against hidden creatures, just invisible ones. Barbarian DR is good but DR doesn't reduce dice individually. It reduces sources individually. Sixty sneak attack damage still hits very hard and reduces strength by two, which requires resources barb doesn't normally have. A ranged build would also mess them up pretty badly because unless they're an elf they need to be in detect mode to reliably catch a stealth enemy, so that's lowered movement. If the archer gets one round of sneak attacks, they're boned.
[/quote]

If at any point you do decide to make a HiPS character and learn first hand, let me know, and I will gladly log at least 3 builds to OOC'ly show you how fundamentally incorrect you are on it not existing.

Not all NPCs are created equally and no one build should have the capability to take down every or nearly every threat in front of them alone. Something called a "Necrolord" definitely sounds super dangerous and should be handled with a group, no? If I need to supply hard math to illustrate the point I was making, I will. At different levels of play if necessary. But there's a reason that rogue/assassin is a very popular meta build, especially with a dip into something that gives you extra attacks.

I may not have ten years of experience playing one archetype, I may not have a perfect knowledge of the server and it's myriad enemies, but that doesn't simply invalidate my opinion or simple facts.