Richard's Big Bulk Baldur's Gate Suggestion Thread

[Steve]

If it's about groups/collaboration, how is punishing those who can't find a group going to solve anything?

There is no debate to be had here. I do not agree at all that you're being "punished" when you can't find a group.

Also, if it's about accepting that HiPS characters shine in a different color, why the 12 second timer suggestion?

Because 6 seconds is too short.

fundamentally shift the dynamic of playing stealthy characters altogether, and not in a way that will make anyone want to play them.

A shift is good! Why do you or anyone play a HiPSer? Because the mechanic is awesome. Because...wait for it...with H/MS skills you can fundamentally do what you can do with HiPS—sneaking—but you can't 6-sec spam back into a absolutely powerful mechanic defense/offense.

Do not believe me?

I believe you feel strongly about your opinion, and have enough anecdotal evidence to uphold your views.

Here's an example of a level 30 HiPS'er taking on a CR23 or 24'ish(approximately) yellow named mob, while using HiPS as his only saving grace(since it has been so widely and repeatedly touted as game-breakingly OP).

Again, my point is why are we arguing the failure of a Soloing expedition again????!!!!!??? It's a dumb move, IC. Your toon deserves to die, sorry if that is harsh, but c'mon man!

Two additional things:
- Sneaks and undead aren't really a fair match. Bring a Paladin mate.
- As I added to the Wiki some years ago: "The Challenge Ratings are based on the idea that you'll be with a party.

If you're going solo, it's suggested you add 2-3 levels to the CR (in many cases (Areas), you are better off adding 4-5 Levels...depending on your Build, and especially whether or not your Build utilizes Magic (divine/arcane) or UMD (considering how easily dispellable UMD is from Scrolls).

The stated CR of some areas is quite wildly different from the real difficulty. "

I fully appreciate and sympathize with the challenge of playing a HiPSter and being able to Solo content that is, by any measure, just not a balanced situation...regardless of the HiPS or not!

And again, this is what I mean about not just looking at a micro-aspect of playing a Rogue, you have to look at how the Server Paradigm is setup to not give Rogues a proper moment to shine. An example being the ability to Bash chests, coffins, boxes, etc. and not have destroyed items. If it was impossible to do this, and any Character needed a Rogue or WAS a Rogue, their USEFULNESS both IC and OOC would be enough to make the inability to solo Big Bosses irrelevant.

So yeah, I do believe you Snarf in that you have a convincing perspective for yourself, but that isn't the FULL PICTURE when talking about a Rogue-based Character, and how HiPS is one of the most powerful Feast in the game and definitely could use—and survive—a little baby nerf. Little baby.

EDIT: and I've about used up my time on this subject. FWIW!!!

[Truthiness]

Having played one for five years now, there are definitely multiple ways to shut down stealth archers, I too will leave it up to others to figure out what these things are.

As far as PvE, a stealth archer is a decent choice, although you have to do far more work to accomplish things that str bards, druids, barbarians, favoured souls or well-built fighters can do more easily. (There are plenty of things those builds can do that stealth archers just can't, as well)

As for the discussion on hips in itself. I only see it overpowered on builds that don't necessarily require it, but get it anyway (bard 27/sd 3 str based as an example). The problem is, if you nerf hips, the ones that need it for survival (rogues, stealth archers) will also suffer. There might be a way to put in some dexterity requirement (maybe around 25) that lets you use it as is, and lower dexterity would cause a slightly longer cooldown (only at level 30, though).

Uncanny dodge and Improved Uncanny Dodge both work on the server, to my knowledge. Improved Uncanny Dodge only prevents sneak attacks from flanking, though, and I'm not entirely sure about the level component on it, but while leveling up sneak dice based characters, I've definitely noticed it on a few monsters (mostly duergar).

Uncanny dodge was fixed to let you keep the entirety of your AC while flatfooted, and a build with 50-55~ ac and uncanny dodge is definitely a counter to most sneak builds, and such isn't too difficult to build if you know what you're doing.

[Snarfy]

A shift is good! Why do you or anyone play a HiPSer? Because the mechanic is awesome. Because...wait for it...with H/MS skills you can fundamentally do what you can do with HiPS—sneaking—but you can't 6-sec spam back into a absolutely powerful mechanic defense/offense.

Incorrect. I can't speak for anyone else who plays a "sneak" (not a HiPS'er), but I play one because I enjoy the RP that is involved with playing one. I love sneaky archetypes, period. So much so that I have 4 characters, out of my 12+, that use stealth(and not necessarily HiPS).

Again, my point is why are we arguing the failure of a Soloing expedition again????!!!!!??? It's a dumb move, IC. Your toon deserves to die, sorry if that is harsh, but c'mon man!

Two additional things:
- Sneaks and undead aren't really a fair match. Bring a Paladin mate.

... bring a paladin. My character loves them, sure!

If you're going solo, it's suggested you add 2-3 levels to the CR (in many cases (Areas), you are better off adding 4-5 Levels...depending on your Build, and especially whether or not your Build utilizes Magic (divine/arcane) or UMD (considering how easily dispellable UMD is from Scrolls).

The stated CR of some areas is quite wildly different from the real difficulty.

I fully appreciate and sympathize with the challenge of playing a HiPSter and being able to Solo content that is, by any measure, just not a balanced situation...regardless of the HiPS or not!

You do realize that I CAN solo this mob, right? And handily. I'll make another video, if you want

Allow me to re-state, in case you glossed over it:
"And, before anyone says anything: Yes, I could have ran after the last attack, but likely not quick enough to get out of radius of the Wail(which is huge). I could also have tried running around the side wall(to break LOS), but the Wail's radius would have reached there too. Lastly, I could have used mantle/death ward/whatever, but no-one here seems to have a gripe with magic, only HiPS."

... HiPS is one of the most powerful Feats in the game and definitely could use—and survive—a little baby nerf.

It totally is "one" of the most powerful feats, no disagreement there. And sure, it'll survive a baby nerf just fine. Too bad the players of non-epic HiPS'ers wont survive it. If you, or anyone else doesn't get that... uhh, ok?

Anyways, my point isn't about solo'ing... that can be done against all kinds of content. I can solo the crap out of places, but that doesn't mean that I want to(or bother to do it). Conversely, there are a fair number of places that my character would NOT survive, even in a group, and with buffs.

The point that I AM trying to make is that statements such as these:

Hide in plain sight as if functions now is horribly unbalanced- most notably in player-versus-player scenarios.

I think a reasonable fix would be to make the cooldown on stealth roughly thirty to fourty-five seconds rather than the standard five seconds

The most extreme measure would be to remove HiPS completely, which in a way makes sense.

I have seen characters with over 90 in both skills, which is a cause for concern, since getting Spot and Listen to equivalent levels isn't nearly as easy.

HIPS is completely broken because of the fact that you mechanically stop existing because all you have to do is back up, hit the button, and then you're fine

... are not a good platform from which to launch off of when it comes to "nerf'ing" HiPS, as they range in tone from salty, to just plain ignorant.

And, after 6 pages, all we have is the same old dead horse, and misinformed players making comments when they either :
A. Are too lazy to/Do not know how to invest in detection.
B. Do not know how detection mechanics work.
C. Do not know how stealth mechanics work.
D. Have never played a character with HiPS(at least into the epics).
E. Are just. plain. salty.

... I should make this my signature.

[Snarfy]

The problem is, if you nerf hips, the ones that need it for survival (rogues, stealth archers) will also suffer.

DING DING DING. And there it is folks, the ramifications of blindly swinging the nerf bat out of ignorance.

[Maecius]

Player Snarfy has posted 17 times in this thread.
Player LazyTrain has posted 10 times in this thread.
Player Hoihe has posted 9 times in this thread.
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Player Steve has posted 8 times in this thread.
Player Druchii has posted 6 times in this thread.
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Player Chad has posted 5 times in this thread.

OP has only posted 3 times in this thread ...

Just saying.

Richard, thank you for sharing your thoughts with the community. I'm sure the devs will look at and at least consider your ideas, since I can tell you spent a lot of time on them. I think you understand that they may not (all) be implemented, as there are obviously a lot of dogs in this fight and a lot of differing opinions (and there have been for many years now on some of these topics). But thank you for taking the time to share your ideas!

[Snarfy]

OP has only posted 3 times in this thread ...

Just saying.

^ .... funny how that works!

(18)

[Druchii]

A shift is good! Why do you or anyone play a HiPSer? Because the mechanic is awesome. Because...wait for it...with H/MS skills you can fundamentally do what you can do with HiPS—sneaking—but you can't 6-sec spam back into a absolutely powerful mechanic defense/offense.

Just saying - I do not play a HiPster purely for the HiPS or for a PvP edge though I am aware in some circumstances it gives me one edge. Like one. My medium ab build with low non-sneak damage and easily-dispelled UMD gear can.. when you arent expecting it.. cause some DPS.

The reason I play an Assassin is for the Death Attack because I find it fun to see something get paralysed, or occasionally equip flavoursome poisons. AND the RP opportunities.

This is the same as I did in NWN1, but coming here landed me with the sweet bonus of being able to take HiPs as well - something I only ever played once in the old game because sneakers were mid-tier back there too (though timestop/harm always was the great equalizer). So whilst some may not believe this and it is unsupported with evidence.. just saying.

Also the motivation for wanting to play HiPS is not as relevant as you think because no one here seems to be of the opinion that it should be removed (or they arent voicing it directly). I also do not believe anyone who wanted to be seen as a Powerbuilder took HiPS on any and every build ever made for PvE or PvP because its OP. It is however popular because it can save your backside from an unpleasant targetted spell, get you out of the line of fire, garner you a quick escape and potion, or give you free sneaks. Its not a win-button.

No one here has actually evidenced a demonic destroyer of worlds whose HiPs makes them the be all and end all. The only thing I did see was a mention that HiPs on an Archer was mad. I can safely agree that the build with AA levels is gunna rock PvE. It's gunna outclass many in PvP who are not pre-prepared or don't know how to counter an archer. However, extending the HiPs cooldown is not going to seriously weaken that build - especially at range when they can run-and-gun. It will more than likely just weaken the more common stealther/melee builds.

I am not convinced that is a good thing.

(7!)

[zhazz]

While big threads such as these can be good to convey a multitude of issues, and give an overview, it does muddle discussions. As it has done here. The entire thread has devolved from three topics into just one.

Rather than have players create an overview thread, could we maybe someone on the staff collect discussion threads into a single pinned thread that cannot be commented on?

Would make it easier to figure out what has already been discussed, while those separate threads can stick to a single topic and stay relevant.

[Snarfy]

While big threads such as these can be good to convey a multitude of issues, and give an overview, it does muddle discussions. As it has done here. The entire thread has devolved from three topics into just one.

It did get pretty muddled, true. I may not be the most qualified person(or least biased) to summarize the topics discussed, but let's see if I can get close(some of this will stray into the "my humble opinion" territory):


Topic 1, the OP suggested: "removing the restriction on taking new classes in epic levels".

As some players have pointed out, removing this restriction would lead to the availability of some obscenely powerful and/or exploitative builds. We have some really savvy players who know how to build a character(I am not one of them), and if they say that removing this restriction could lead to builds that can solo the most difficult creature in game, then I am inclined to take their word for it.

Topic 2, the suggestion was: "once a month, or bi-monthly RCR's".

I think that subject got to about "RCR is staying as it is", and that was about it.

Topic 3( ), went: "make the cooldown on stealth roughly thirty to fourty-five seconds rather than the standard five seconds".

If the stated objective of this suggestion is, in fact, to "prevent rapid utilization of HiPS to both force themselves to be de-targeted and stack an unreasonable amount of sneak attacks on opponents they're facing directly", and in the same breath "prevent invalidating a number of builds that rely on HiPS", then the obvious question that must be asked becomes: Do the ends justify the means?

***IMHO*** .... a 45 second timer on stealth cooldown would not ONLY invalidate a number of builds, it would render numerous classes themselves nearly obsolete. Rogues and Rangers foremost, and monks and bards that employ stealth next. "Rapid utilization of HiPS" is perhaps less of the issue, while "players utilizing HiPS in their builds as a means of/with the intention exploiting the de-targeting aspect" is more of the issue.

Aaaand, I'll try and stop right there.

(19)

[Tanlaus]

I've chimed in on enough HiPS threads that I don't want to beat the dead horse too hard on this one. My 20 Rouge/ 10 Shadow Dancer is not exactly a power build already. I'd be hard pressed to find an epic class that can't solo the areas I solo. Which actually brings me to my first point. If you're going to run a test where a HiPSter solos an epic area, you should run the same area with an FS, Barb, Bard, Weapon Master, Cleric, Wizard, etc. Personally I think the results will be enlightening to people who think HiPS is OP.

My second point is about power builds...

[/quote]

One possibility would be to move SD HiPS to level 5, requiring an extra level or 2 of investment in the class over what most dippers take which would somewhat mess with HiPS mages and Weapon Master/Frenzied Berserkers, but would also mess with sneak attack based builds that will lose at least 1d6 extra sneak dice. Just spit balling because I am still trying to figure exactly what it is that angers some folks when it comes to HiPS.
[/quote]

I've thought a bit about this and pretty much agree. Maybe even move it to 7. On the flip side though, you'd really need to give shadow dancers something to up their viability before reaching that point. Maybe giving Shadow Dancers their shadow at level 1? Make shadow daze more like blinding strike but tie the DC to SD level the way it is now? I don't really know the solution either but unlike assassins their DPS pretty much stalls out until epic levels and you don't want to make it so punishing that it's not worth playing.

[Hoihe]

I've chimed in on enough HiPS threads that I don't want to beat the dead horse too hard on this one. My 20 Rouge/ 10 Shadow Dancer is not exactly a power build already. I'd be hard pressed to find an epic class that can't solo the areas I solo. Which actually brings me to my first point. If you're going to run a test where a HiPSter solos an epic area, you should run the same area with an FS, Barb, Bard, Weapon Master, Cleric, Wizard, etc. Personally I think the results will be enlightening to people who think HiPS is OP.

My second point is about power builds...



One possibility would be to move SD HiPS to level 5, requiring an extra level or 2 of investment in the class over what most dippers take which would somewhat mess with HiPS mages and Weapon Master/Frenzied Berserkers, but would also mess with sneak attack based builds that will lose at least 1d6 extra sneak dice. Just spit balling because I am still trying to figure exactly what it is that angers some folks when it comes to HiPS.


I've thought a bit about this and pretty much agree. Maybe even move it to 7. On the flip side though, you'd really need to give shadow dancers something to up their viability before reaching that point. Maybe giving Shadow Dancers their shadow at level 1? Make shadow daze more like blinding strike but tie the DC to SD level the way it is now? I don't really know the solution either but unlike assassins their DPS pretty much stalls out until epic levels and you don't want to make it so punishing that it's not worth playing.

Such would nerf already weak, but lore-friendly rogue builds greatly though.

Presently, you can do rogue 19/shadowdancer3/divine seeker 5/Invisible blade 3.

Moving HiPS to 7 or even 5 would cut out the IB, which reduces AC and access to bleeds.

[Tanlaus]

I've chimed in on enough HiPS threads that I don't want to beat the dead horse too hard on this one. My 20 Rouge/ 10 Shadow Dancer is not exactly a power build already. I'd be hard pressed to find an epic class that can't solo the areas I solo. Which actually brings me to my first point. If you're going to run a test where a HiPSter solos an epic area, you should run the same area with an FS, Barb, Bard, Weapon Master, Cleric, Wizard, etc. Personally I think the results will be enlightening to people who think HiPS is OP.

My second point is about power builds...



One possibility would be to move SD HiPS to level 5, requiring an extra level or 2 of investment in the class over what most dippers take which would somewhat mess with HiPS mages and Weapon Master/Frenzied Berserkers, but would also mess with sneak attack based builds that will lose at least 1d6 extra sneak dice. Just spit balling because I am still trying to figure exactly what it is that angers some folks when it comes to HiPS.


I've thought a bit about this and pretty much agree. Maybe even move it to 7. On the flip side though, you'd really need to give shadow dancers something to up their viability before reaching that point. Maybe giving Shadow Dancers their shadow at level 1? Make shadow daze more like blinding strike but tie the DC to SD level the way it is now? I don't really know the solution either but unlike assassins their DPS pretty much stalls out until epic levels and you don't want to make it so punishing that it's not worth playing.

Such would nerf already weak, but lore-friendly rogue builds greatly though.

Presently, you can do rogue 19/shadowdancer3/divine seeker 5/Invisible blade 3.

Moving HiPS to 7 or even 5 would cut out the IB, which reduces AC and access to bleeds.

This is true.

Not that I think moving HiPS is necessary or such a great idea anyway.

I do see the problem of casters using HiPS as an interrupt even without having the skill points to actually hide from anything. But I’m not sure what kind of fix for that is....

Or even if it’s such a wide spread enough exploit to bother with really. It’s clearly not the issue the OP had with it.

[Snarfy]

I can safely agree that the build with AA levels is gunna rock PvE. It's gunna outclass many in PvP who are not pre-prepared or don't know how to counter an archer. However, extending the HiPs cooldown is not going to seriously weaken that build - especially at range when they can run-and-gun. It will more than likely just weaken the more common stealthier/melee builds.

^ This.

I don't really know the solution either but unlike assassins their DPS pretty much stalls out until epic levels and you don't want to make it so punishing that it's not worth playing.

I think maybe it's important to touch on this, and solutions. Because no matter how many ways you come up with to slow down/mitigate/nerf HiPS(and, lets be honest, that's what this suggestion is all about), any changes will impact builds differently.

Lets use three types of HiPS archetypes as examples, and ones that I think players have the biggest gripe with: HiPS Archers, Dual-wield/sneak-attack melee builds, and Mages(disclaimer: I have little to no experience PvP'ing against, or playing one of these, but I have a 29th mage, and I have a 30th HiPSer. I can only imagine how disgustingly powerful this combo is, and I've heard from others who've played it that say it's ridiculously OP).

Changing the stealth timer to 9 seconds:
Archer - Assuming something survives the first volley, they will run and gun for an extra 3 seconds, giving mobs/players that much extra time to try and target them before the archer gets to their next HiPS flurry and finishes them off. Minimal impact.
Mage - If the mage is fully warded, and plays smart? Forget about it, they can survive. An extra 3 seconds only gives them MORE time to prepare counter-measures(counterspell mords/mantle/nuke). Little to no impact.
Melee - Adding 3 seconds to running away like crazy isn't the worst thing ever, but it can still be the difference between life and death. If you've ever played a HiPS melee character, you'll know what I'm talking about. If you haven't, go roll one up, and try and not HiPS for an extra 3 seconds. Medium impact.

Changing the stealth timer to 12 seconds:
Archer - These glass cannons now have to rely on finding other ways to get the hell out of trouble, because 12 seconds becomes REALLY dangerous for them. Insert invis potions/dimension door wands/gr. sanctuary potions, or whatever other crutch they now have to RELY on to survive. Considerable impact.
Mage - .... who cares? They're a mage, and mages can wipe the floor with other characters bums, even on a bad day. Little to no impact.
Melee - Just like archers, they're in trouble, only worse. Not only do they have to find a new means of escaping, they have to get out of melee range to do it. Severe impact(... bordering on rcr'ing into a new build. I would just quit the server *shrug*)

Changing the stealth timer to anything above 12 seconds:
Archer - Will go broke from using consumables, copious player anger. RcR/quitting time. Fatal impact.
Mage - .... who cares? They're a mage. Little to no impact.
Melee - Will go broke from using consumables, copious player anger. RcR/quitting time. Fatal impact.

Move SD HiPS to level 5:
Archer - ...... nope.
Mage - ........ they lose 2 CL, which pretty much makes it not worth it to take. Severe impact
Melee - Hurts cheeze 3 level SD dip builds. Prolongs getting HiPS for non-cheeze SD's. Minimal impact.

.... umm, other "solutions"?

Changing Shadowdancer and Assassin to now require 3 levels in either monk, rogue, bard, or ranger:
Archer - Ranger/Assassins are kick-ass, their numbers would probably increase actually. Severe impact... on the anti-HiPS camp. Not Archers, other than to say it would pigeon-hole them into builds. Considerable impact on build variety.
Mage - They lose 3 CL. Which is pretty brutal. While it's not for me to say how others build their characters, and even if this is not my kitchen, I would not like to wizz in anyones cornflakes with a 3 CL hit. Considerable impact.
Melee - They probably have 3 levels of one of those classes already... No impact.

Basically, almost any way you slice it, someone is going to feel the pinch. And the more severe the nerf, the worse it is for everyone(except casters).
Let's make everyone mad because someone doesn't know how to beat HiPS in PvP? What's the point?

(20!!! And, with that, I'm done, because there is no point.)

[Richard]

I haven't posted in this thread since the first day mostly because I've put my opinions out and am wanting to get a feel for everyone else and follow the debate before/if I say anything else substantial. I don't have near enough seniority on the server to be going around saying "such and such is how things should be", but I do recognize some common issues that I, my friends that play, and many others seem to run into most frequently. So far I have found the debate both very informative and very interesting, with one exception:

Snarfy, most of what I'm reading from your posts is- in my opinion- not any semblance of civil debate or discussion. It seems overall more like sneering derision of opinions different from yours, and what little constructive suggestion/criticism might be gleaned from your posts are unfortunately buried under an uncomfortable amount of ego. Your posts are in large part the other reason I haven't posted much at all since the start of the thread.

I'd prefer to continue to enjoy reading this thread and helping form, re-form, or re-enforce the opinions that I hold on what seem to be the forefront topics as far as what's viewed as an issue to the server and what potential fixes to those issues might be. If you're not interested in being constructive, would you mind not posting in this thread anymore?

[Snarfy]

If you're not interested in being constructive...

Guilty as charged. Admittedly, I do have a very difficult time remaining constructive when conversations about changes towards ANY mechanics involves mis-information, or otherwise fails to take into account the vast array of players whose characters would be negatively impacted by said changes.

That being said, and if you haven't already, I implore you to continue leveling up your character that utilizes hide in plain sight into the pre/early epics, and then share your thoughts on how it performs. Alternatively, you can also choose to voluntarily adhere to utilizing HiPS every 9, 12, 30, or 45 seconds(whichever you prefer), and in so doing get a better picture of how such a proposed change would affect things. I, for one, would very much like to hear about the results of such.

...would you mind not posting in this thread anymore?

(...And, with that, I'm done...)

Way ahead of you.