Removing crit/sneak immunity from physical monsters

[realayer]

It does not quite make sense that undead, construct, and other physically existing enemies (perhaps with a few exceptions) have crit or sneak immunity as a physical being they have weak spots. Undeads have cracked bones, decaying flesh; constructs have power cores, etc. I do agree that ethereal being like ghost and phantoms will be immune to crit/sneak attacks as they do not seem to have exploitable weak spots.

I suggest removing crit/sneak immunity from these physically existing creatures. Any thoughts?

[realayer]

For higher cr creatures, to compensate for removing crit/sneak immunity, perhaps giving them certain damage reduction based on damage types? Skeletons have damage reduction to slashing and piercing. Constructs have damage reduction to slashing, etc.

[realayer]

I agree that higher CR creatures should be challenging, but not at the expense of shutting down core mechanics of certain classes. If DR is already in place, perhaps a higher number of monsters or even higher DR to keep them challenging? Just throw some thoughts here

[Bobthehero]

There comes a point where you can take a feat to mitigate sneak immunity. so higher CR creatures should keep their immunities.

[realayer]

There comes a point where you can take a feat to mitigate sneak immunity. so higher CR creatures should keep their immunities.

That applies only to sneak attack users. But what about fighters, weapon masters, and other classes that rely on crits for damage output? Is it able as an alternative to give mobs damage reduction to crits and sneak attacks instead of immunity that does not make sense physically?

[Bobthehero]

They're doing fine with generally much higher damage per hit than sneakers, my own Weapon Master had little to no issues. And if we go that route, how about the fact that most of the things you listed also resist mind affecting effects? They're a staple of the Man at Arms and that class is unable to use its defining abilities against all of those monsters.

[Tanlaus]

There comes a point where you can take a feat to mitigate sneak immunity. so higher CR creatures should keep their immunities.

That applies only to sneak attack users. But what about fighters, weapon masters, and other classes that rely on crits for damage output? Is it able as an alternative to give mobs damage reduction to crits and sneak attacks instead of immunity that does not make sense physically?

It doesn’t make sense physically and as someone who almost exclusively plays sneak type characters it would benefit me greatly... but a well built (and not even Uber power built) party of 4 can beat down anything in the game in almost no time except the white dragon... which they can also beat down but it just takes longer.

Removing sneak and crit immunity would kind of trivialize a lot of end game content I think.

Also in a similar vein for casters high SR enemies can be a nightmare.

I think they key is less in changing the core mechanic and more in having a balance of enemy types on the server so there are difficult enemies for all types of characters.... which may be a bit impossible but it’s a good goal to shoot for.

Also for the record I love the way Pathfinder handles it, but they also don’t have epic levels in the same way 3.5 does so the power scale of players doesn’t quite get so wackadoodle.

[realayer]

They're doing fine with generally much higher damage per hit than sneakers, my own Weapon Master had little to no issues. And if we go that route, how about the fact that most of the things you listed also resist mind affecting effects? They're a staple of the Man at Arms and that class is unable to use its defining abilities against all of those monsters.

My suggestion is that crit/sneak immune creatures do not make sense physically. Undeads, constructs have weak points so they should not immune to crit or sneak attacks. But to keep them challenging in higher CR and to balance things out, we do need to find a way to compensate for removing such immunity.

Regarding mind affect immunity, undeads and constructs do not have their own will, so logically mind-affecting ability should not affect them.

[Blackman D]

there are intelligent undead that have their own will, you just dont see that in a game setting

and there is nothing wrong with crit immunity on anything, there are plenty of ways around it, the only ones that it even hurts are low str sneaks that dont bother to take epic precision for whatever reason

all crit immunity does is block extra physical damage, sneak attacks are considered extra damage which is why they get grouped in with it - hence why sneak attacks cant crit

do high normal damage (most fighter type builds, esp str based WMs), take epic precision for half sneak damage, or buff with other bonus damage and it becomes a non issue

as for it not making sense, we -are- talking about supernatural creatures here and constructs... that are generally made thru magic

[zhazz]

One of the better ways to handle undeads, when playing a sneak attack or crit build, is to get UMD to 10, which every build should be able to. This allows the use of a Wand of Bless Weapon, which will give the below benefits for 50 minutes.

The only downside being that you need to find a paladin with the Craft Wand feat.

You empower the touched melee weapon with a +1 piercing damage bonus vs. evil, and a 2d6 magic damage bonus vs. undead. The weapon is also considered to be good-aligned for purposes of damage reduction. You can also target another creature to enchant its equipped melee weapon.

Source: https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Bless_Weapon

[Hoihe]

If there's any woe with something - it's the ability drain immunity and disarm immunity of many mobs that shouldn't be.


We've a lot of mobs that wield weapons, and even change their weapons but are immune to disarm. This kills one of the gimmicks of the Swb/Du build has over a classic fighter.

Then there's the stat reduction immunity, which again is the primary gimmick of Swb/du (Very small damage compared to a fighter, especially since half/quarter is negated on crit/sneak immunes rely on con/str drain to win difficult fights - all difficult fights are drain immune.)

[Rain]

One of the better ways to handle undeads, when playing a sneak attack or crit build, is to get UMD to 10, which every build should be able to. This allows the use of a Wand of Bless Weapon, which will give the below benefits for 50 minutes.

The only downside being that you need to find a paladin with the Craft Wand feat.

You empower the touched melee weapon with a +1 piercing damage bonus vs. evil, and a 2d6 magic damage bonus vs. undead. The weapon is also considered to be good-aligned for purposes of damage reduction. You can also target another creature to enchant its equipped melee weapon.

Source: https://wiki.bgtscc.net/index.php?title=Bless_Weapon

Nope clerics have bless weapon as well. Wiki is not up to date.

[Theodore01]

Nope clerics have bless weapon as well. Wiki is not up to date.

Where ????
They have bless water

[Rain]

Nope clerics have bless weapon as well. Wiki is not up to date.

Where ????
They have bless water

I'll screenshot proof on my necro cleric in a sec

[zhazz]

Nope clerics have bless weapon as well. Wiki is not up to date.

Where ????
They have bless water

I'll screenshot proof on my necro cleric in a sec

Are you sure? I heard mention that there are two different versions. One for Paladins, and one for Clerics, with the latter just making the weapon Good/Evil for the purposes of overcoming DR, but none of the extra damage.