Dwarven Cavestalker

[Stolcor]

I've got an itch to play a Dwarf. I'm thinking a handaxe-wielding PTWF cavestalker. A guy who has trained to take down drow in addition to all the typical cave-dwelling enemies of the the dwarves: orcs, goblins, duergar, etc.

Here's the build: http://nwn2db.com/build/?322503

I could get OTWS to up to Dwarven Waraxe. Regarding epic weapons, is it easier to find awesome handaxes or dwarven waraxes?

Looking for advice on the two undecided feats (probably more Favored Enemies, right?) and which favored enemies to use. I'm thinking elf is a must for the RP aspect of training against Drow. Might consider dwarves to get Duergar on there. But I also want as much mehcanical viability as possible.

I put expose weakness because I see others suggest it, but I'm not attached to it. For a melee with full BAB, is it a must have, a big advantage, or just so-so?

Is better to keep the STR stat odd for easy +3 item, or is +4 available enough that I'm better of utilizing stat points elswhere or another epic feat elsewhere?

Finally, what about animal companion? More trouble than they're worth? Enough to justify epic companion feat? I would probably go badger for the ferocity of it, though boar fits dwarves well. I have knockdown, but wolf/dog for even more knockdown could be fun/obnoxious

[AlfarinIcebreaker]

Some interesting points in a build. It looks solid enough, I would only point up the following:

1. Maybe 26 Ranger/4 Cavestalker would be a better split. Ranger 24 gets +1 AC from Protective Ward (total of 2, so you should put this into build if going with this split), Ranger 25 gets additional Favored Enemy (and keep in mind that Cavestalker FE don't stack with Ranger's) and Ranger 26 gets another epic bonus feat.

2. Go either Handaxes or flails. There are epic handaxes available in Roaringshore with +4 EB and +1d6 acid damage. Also you can use deadly defense with them. On another hand you have Blackjack flail which give +4 EB, +1d4 bonus physical damage and whooping +3 to Hide and +3 to Move Silently. Deadly Defense won't work with them, though.

3. Not sure if Athktatlan Triparite is a better choice than Northlander Hewing? How does AP work with dual-wielding?

4. Animal Companion is worth it if you are going to make full use of it, i.e. pick up Natural Bond and Epic Animal Companion.

5. Expose Weakness is a must-have, I would never skip it.

6. Aim for even STR, since +4 item is available in shop.

[Stolcor]

1. Maybe 26 Ranger/4 Cavestalker would be a better split. Ranger 24 gets +1 AC from Protective Ward (total of 2, so you should put this into build if going with this split), Ranger 25 gets additional Favored Enemy (and keep in mind that Cavestalker FE don't stack with Ranger's) and Ranger 26 gets another epic bonus feat.

I think I'm reluctant to go with this precisely because it seems like the standard split. I also kind of want Gaseous Form, but hear that it is buggy.

Question: can't a ranger use his epic bonus feat to simply add a Favored Enemy? The builder allows it, but I'm not sure that works on BG. If so, it's a way to get 6 FEs without going R25

2. Go either Handaxes or flails. There are epic handaxes available in Roaringshore with +4 EB and +1d6 acid damage. Also you can use deadly defense with them. On another hand you have Blackjack flail which give +4 EB, +1d4 bonus physical damage and whooping +3 to Hide and +3 to Move Silently. Deadly Defense won't work with them, though.

Deadly defense is 1d4 and only works during CE/ICE, which averages out to 2.5. dmg. Dwarven Waraxe, as 1d10, averages 2 dmg higher than 1d6, and is always on. Also, there's the flavor. So it's basically a wash. You just trade the feat for OTWF. The easy access to epic version, though, might tip the balance

3. Not sure if Athktatlan Triparite is a better choice than Northlander Hewing? How does AP work with dual-wielding?

From what I saw in another thread, both feats only subtract from the main hand re: number of attacks, but give bonuses to both hands. NH, however, factors in all attacks, so it cuts 4 attacks from the main hand to give damage to both hands. AP would cut 3 from main hand, 4 when hasted and give that bonus to both hands. A TWF build doesn't have AC to spare, so I'm inclined to go with AP to get a little damage boost but also round out AC. NH is more offensive, AP is more defensive, but both viable IMO

4. Animal Companion is worth it if you are going to make full use of it, i.e. pick up Natural Bond and Epic Animal Companion.

Starting to get a little feat-starved if I also go for ward. Which feats to drop?

5. Expose Weakness is a must-have, I would never skip it.

I guess that makes sense, to make up for not being able to pump STR all the way

6. Aim for even STR, since +4 item is available in shop.

That's what I was thinking. Which do you think is better, that I reduce starting STR and get 3 stat points to share (I'd go 2 CON for hp and 1 WIS so that a +4 item gives more spell slots) or epic feat? Probably depends on whether I want epic companion.

Another iteration I'm toying with is this: http://nwn2db.com/build/?322909
Gives a little more texture to his character rp wise, also liking SA dice and uncanny dodge. With using HIPS and SA more consistently rather than as just defense, I imagine the animal companion would die pretty quickly (also, 3 levels lower)

[Galdinao]

I will try to contribute with thoughts based on my personal experience since I have a a level30 Ranger (Ran25/EA5) and a duel-weilder (shortsword) who faced a similar dilemma as yours.
First of all, you should seek for the +4 STR item. Every toon on this server have conditions to seek for at least one +4 item, if you can't buy it alone then hire an appraiser.(I have an appraiser to be hired :p)

IMHO investing feats in Animal Companions are better worth for archers because you can use them as a decent tanker for you while you burst then all. In epic levels (specially with your low WIS) you will find this dilemma: should I full buff myself or my animal? You will receive good spells to be used as a skill if you memorize the spell, like Exacting Strike. Instead of spending two talents on Animal Companions, I would recommend to get Practiced Spellcaster and full buff yourself with an almost guarantee to not be dispelled. The only way to overpass this THAT I KNOW is doing a Ranger WIS based (Zen Archery), it will gives you spell slots to buff you and your animal (plus a high Will saves for a Ranger.)

Playing as a Ranger based will makes you a wonderful grinder, one of the best, you will start to find some challenging only at 25+ (IMHO), but you will face a hard time trying to solo bosses, specially using slashing weapons and ways to bypass DR in high epic levels. It's quite frustrating when you compare your boss fights with the power builds boss killers (FS, Barbs, Monks based, Conlocks, EDM builds), but if you don't mind about trying to solo epic bossess, you will be fine with your build and you will shine while grinding.

NH is great with a high AB. Since you have an average AB for a dual-wielder, I would invest more in the "tanky part"of the build. Athktatlan Triparite can fits really well for this.

About Expose Weakness: I think it's a must have in this dual-wielder's case. You will clearly feels the difference about having or not this feat during your gameplay. I must admit it’s a little addictive to play a non-caster who have EW , it makes you desires EW in all your other toons

That's my personal thoughts. If you want to ask me something I will be glad to help.

[chad878262]

For a STR Ranger I would not recommend picking up Deadly Defense so I think it's fine for you to go OTWF with waraxes. However, in my opinion every Ranger *NEEDS* ICE... Consider

10 (base) + 13 (Melodic Chain, 14 DEX+ Cats Grace) + 13 (Dodge, Deflect, Natural) + 1 (Protective Ward assuming 23 Ranger levels) + 3 (Tumble) +2 (Hide of Stone if 6 CaveStalker levels) = 42. You could be up to 44 with LoH and Armor Skin. Either way, that is pretty low and ICE fixes your issue. Now, you could of course cross class UMD and use wands for IMA and potions for shield to manage as well, but to be honest I'd be using both.

I will also agree that NH is a great feat for STR Rangers to take, especially to handle high DR enemies.

All this said, and taking in to account various folks advice, if something seems like it'll be fun for you...do that. If it turns out not to be fun, oh well, there is other concepts you can try. However, if you do what any of us says you'll still wonder if you wouldn't of had fun with your original concept. So read the advice given, consider if it fits better in your concept or not and in the end do what seems more fun for you.

[qwertyh88]

My main is a lvl 30 Human ranger two weapons fighter with base stats of 23 str & 16 dex. (I know it's not great ~ but it was built before all these purchasable epic items can be bought & had). He can solo most of the epic level areas & be really quick too!

In my experience,
Epic Animal companion is so very important to a ranger's survival in the epic areas. It eats Mord's and gives the opportunity to disengage from enemies when he cannot HIPS. And you can flank!

The weakness of my ranger is the fact that he has low will save. I would recommend getting 30 in spellcraft & get steadfast determination & up your starting CON score to 16 dropping 1 from strength to 16.

Put the extra 1 point into WISDOM for 12 WISDOM. One of the best ranger helmet is a +2 WISDOM & +1 lvl 1 & lvl 2 spell that can be readily had.
Starting accumulating + ranger spell items. My ranger has a set of all + ranger spells gear except for cloak, which allows him to buff the pet to FULL & have enough spells for himself & 4 Flame Weapons on the ready after switching over to combat gear.

Unless there is RP reason for Knockdown/Improved version, I would drop them. Against your favored enemies mobs, they should drop within ~ a round of normal hitting. Against Bosses, it's useless. Against PvP, you are a ranger with mobs favored enemy --- the result won't end well for you most likely.

I would not get ICE -- it will drop your damage too much to be worth the +3 AC. CE with AT should be enough for the EPIC bosses. (Mine doesn't use AT, only CE)

I would also recommend getting Able Learned on LVL 3 and getting some point into Heal.
Lastly I would get Improved Critical on the Dwarven Axes, since the best way to overcome DR on epic bosses is just the pure shear amount of crits with that sweet x3.

Speaking of which..if there is anyone with a cloak that gives ranger spells..please PM ME! Thanks!

[Stolcor]

Loving all the feedback, thanks. Lots to think about!

[Okan]

I am currently playing a dwarven cavestalker with 26R/4 Cavestalker split.

Mine is focusing on dwarven axes, which because they are cool and also there's a +4eb +1d4 magical damage and Power Critical(and a bunch of ribbon skill bonuses on top of these) dwarven axe available on the epic shop. Mind you they are quite expensive but I think they are great. Also IIRC there is a -relatively- cheap option for increasing your critical threat range with whetstones so I would not opt for Improved critical as a feat since they don't stack.

If you play your skill allocations nicely you should be able to skip able learner and still fit in non-ranger but cavestalker skills unless you have dumped your intelligence to a low score.

I think expose weakness is almost mandatory. It makes later sequence attacks much more reliable, which makes it great to have more mileage from your bane of enemies and favored enemy damage bonus. And I'll have to agree with chad, there are countless times it feels like I would be dwarven paste on the floor if I didn't have the option to turn ICE on DM events or when an area decide to run the script, send a bunch of hard-hitting mobs at you at once.

To stack upon ranger spell slot equipment and incorporating them into your rest cycle is also very important if you want to utilize your pet because you need to fully buff your baby into a monster for it to function.

[Stolcor]

The weakness of my ranger is the fact that he has low will save. I would recommend getting 30 in spellcraft & get steadfast determination & up your starting CON score to 16 dropping 1 from strength to 16.

Though I do have the points to spare atm, none of the classes have that as a class skill, so 15 is the best we can hope for.


Would it not be possible to just use a handxe in the off-hand and a waraxe in the main, since it only penalizes weapon size in the off-hand? Still get the tiny 2 damage bump in main hand but don't have to spend a feat. And with the whetstone (or lodestone) (7000 for 50 uses = 140gp/use), it's not so bad that I feel the need to get the feat and you don't have to commit to any one weapon. You can also sometimes just find keen weapons, though I don't know of any +4s with keen in the shop.

I'm thinking ICE is pretty crucial and am now strongly considering the animal companion.

In my experience,
Epic Animal companion is so very important to a ranger's survival in the epic areas. It eats Mord's and gives the opportunity to disengage from enemies when he cannot HIPS. And you can flank!

To stack upon ranger spell slot equipment and incorporating them into your rest cycle is also very important if you want to utilize your pet because you need to fully buff your baby into a monster for it to function.

Question, if I MC something other than R/CS, is three levels lower on the animal companion a make-or-break kind of thing? It'll be weaker sure, but will those 3 levels render it useless? Also, any reason the badger is not viable? I kind of like the rage aspect and it has highest non-dragon AB and ties for highest AC.

[qwertyh88]

The weakness of my ranger is the fact that he has low will save. I would recommend getting 30 in spellcraft & get steadfast determination & up your starting CON score to 16 dropping 1 from strength to 16.

Though I do have the points to spare atm, none of the classes have that as a class skill, so 15 is the best we can hope for.

Cavestalker has Tumble and Spellcraft as class skills <- the main draw to dip into Cavestalker for a Ranger. Ranger doesn't have tumble on bgtscc.

[Stolcor]

Cavestalker has Tumble and Spellcraft as class skills <- the main draw to dip into Cavestalker for a Ranger. Ranger doesn't have tumble on bgtscc.

Not according to the Wiki. I guess it needs an update

[AlfarinIcebreaker]

One thing regarding weapon choice: Dwarven waraxe average damage would be:

5,5 base + 4 EB + 2,5 magical damage = 12 (assuming best shop available version)

Handaxe:
3,5 base + 4 EB + 3,5 acid damage + 2,5 Deadly Defense = 13,5 (assuming best shop available version)

Both need a feat, meaning they are equal in terms of requirements, but as you see handaxes win out (assuming you would be using Combat Expertise, which you should as a Ranger).

[Okan]

I'd value 2.5 magic damage more than 3.5 acid damage but that might be just me. But I think when considering those best of the line items you gotta consider power critical and more reliable crits you get out of it, especially on a high STR toon with x3 critical multiplier weapons.

Deadly defense also locks you in certain weapon types while OTWF expands your range in that matter. It might take a while to be able to afford these epic shop items since you gotta get two of those and if you have OTWF you have the luxury to go a wider range of placeholder weapons until you reach that point. There's also the off chance of looting/trading weapons from random loot table with great properties that won't fit the criteria for deadly defense. Especially when going for different material weapons with nice properties, having hat freedom to go for any one-handers comes in handy.

On deadly defense overall, while I advocate for CE/ICE for a ranger and they are great lifesavers in my opinions, I'd be lying if I have it on at all times.

[Stolcor]

One thing regarding weapon choice: Dwarven waraxe average damage would be:

5,5 base + 4 EB + 2,5 magical damage = 12 (assuming best shop available version)

Handaxe:
3,5 base + 4 EB + 3,5 acid damage + 2,5 Deadly Defense = 13,5 (assuming best shop available version)

Both need a feat, meaning they are equal in terms of requirements, but as you see handaxes win out (assuming you would be using Combat Expertise, which you should as a Ranger).

I also don't have to stick with identical weapons. It's quite possible to use a waraxe in the main hand and any light weapon in the off-hand. The advantage of this is no feat required either way and no feat wasted, but you still pick up a damage boost for the main hand. Especially if I want to up AC and keep my Animal Companion viable, I think I'd rather spare the feat and keep flexibility (the only restriction being a light off-hand weapon).

On deadly defense overall, while I advocate for CE/ICE for a ranger and they are great lifesavers in my opinions, I'd be lying if I have it on at all times.

I think expertise is a non-negotiable (otherwise I'd drop INT to pump other stats). If you look at the build, it helps him to get low 60s AC (with UMD help) But I likely won't have ICE (or AT, for that matter) on coming out of HIPS the first round, which means a fair portion of my combat won't have Deadly Defense as a factor, but the +2 on one hand with DWaxe will always apply.

But I think when considering those best of the line items you gotta consider power critical and more reliable crits you get out of it, especially on a high STR toon with x3 critical multiplier weapons.

I mean, Whetstone/Lodestone (easily available and affordable at later levels) makes this a non-issue. Even with dispels, you can just reapply


Anyone have thoughts on KD/IKD? Only one person has suggested dropping it, but after playing a melee without it, I am frickin sick of not being able to push down spellcasters. I have a character who can go toe-to-toe with plenty of big, beefy mobs and bosses, but the second he faces someone with Bigbys Interposing or Greater Invisibility, he's doomed to whiffing while he soaks up fire, ice, and lighting until he has 25% hp and spells finally wear off... but he could have avoided all of that with a knockdown on the first round (looking at you Skeleton Mages, Naga, and Ogre Mages).

I mean, with a +14 modifier, it's pretty good (not cavalier +19 good, but not many are), but if this build can really be counted on to kill casters in one round anyway and the bosses are immune, it makes sense not to bother. I *do* like the idea of HIPS up to some mob mage or miniboss and opening with a +14 IKD that makes sure he is dead or nearly dead before casting a single spell. PVP isn't my thing, but I'd be lying if I said it's not something I consider in the build.

[qwertyh88]

I think expertise is a non-negotiable (otherwise I'd drop INT to pump other stats). If you look at the build, it helps him to get low 60s AC (with UMD help) But I likely won't have ICE (or AT, for that matter) on coming out of HIPS the first round, which means a fair portion of my combat won't have Deadly Defense as a factor, but the +2 on one hand with DWaxe will always apply.

60 AC is very admirable..but my ranger only has 52 AC MAX and he can solo most of the epics. But then I again I value my skills on my ranger --like able to pick 60DC+ locks/ good appraise/ etc..