Swashbuckler

[Steve]

From the BGTSCC Wiki:

Epic Precision allows the Swashbuckler to apply Insightful Strike damage to foes immune to critical hits

[Valefort]

IIRC insightful strike behaves exactly like sneak attack regarding crit immunity and epic precision, meaning insightful strike damage is halved when you have epic precision (instead of 0).

[Stolcor]

IIRC insightful strike behaves exactly like sneak attack regarding crit immunity and epic precision, meaning insightful strike damage is halved when you have epic precision (instead of 0).

Can anyone playtest this and update the wiki?

Also, Insightful Strike add INT on top of STR, correct?
What happens with both Insightful Strike and Combat Insight?
Since Combat Insight -replaces- the STR modifier with INT, does that mean taking it then takes away the Swashy's combo of STR and INT dmg?

E.g. Swash with (buffed) 16 STR and 20 INT has +8dmg, add Combat Insight for total of +10, not +13?

If all that is correct, it's value as an Epic Feat is higher the lower your strength, since the example above means it's only a +2 dmg gain

[ajcolt]

IIRC insightful strike behaves exactly like sneak attack regarding crit immunity and epic precision, meaning insightful strike damage is halved when you have epic precision (instead of 0).

Can anyone playtest this and update the wiki?

Also, Insightful Strike add INT on top of STR, correct?
What happens with both Insightful Strike and Combat Insight?
Since Combat Insight -replaces- the STR modifier with INT, does that mean taking it then takes away the Swashy's combo of STR and INT dmg?

E.g. Swash with (buffed) 16 STR and 20 INT has +8dmg, add Combat Insight for total of +10, not +13?

If all that is correct, it's value as an Epic Feat is higher the lower your strength, since the example above means it's only a +2 dmg gain

Insightful strike is in addition to and not considering any strength damage. Combat insight allows int bonus mod to replace str bonus mod so against any enemy that doesn't have crit immune you'll be doing insightful strike damage (if you use an eligible weapon) + Combat insight damage (assuming Int is higher then str).

In your example and assuming whatever you are attacking isn't immune to crits. Your character will get +5 bonus damage from insightful strike and +5 damage from combat insight.

[Stolcor]

Insightful strike is in addition to and not considering any strength damage. Combat insight allows int bonus mod to replace str bonus mod so against any enemy that doesn't have crit immune you'll be doing insightful strike damage (if you use an eligible weapon) + Combat insight damage (assuming Int is higher then str).

In your example and assuming whatever you are attacking isn't immune to crits. Your character will get +5 bonus damage from insightful strike and +5 damage from combat insight.

Thanks for verifying that. Affects the builds I'm toying with now.

Also, I don't think I'd bother with Swash unless I got epic precision either as Swash 12 or rogue 10 Crippling Strike. Hence my interest in whether it's only a half bonus like sneak attack or full like death attack.

[ajcolt]

Insightful strike is in addition to and not considering any strength damage. Combat insight allows int bonus mod to replace str bonus mod so against any enemy that doesn't have crit immune you'll be doing insightful strike damage (if you use an eligible weapon) + Combat insight damage (assuming Int is higher then str).

In your example and assuming whatever you are attacking isn't immune to crits. Your character will get +5 bonus damage from insightful strike and +5 damage from combat insight.

Thanks for verifying that. Affects the builds I'm toying with now.

Also, I don't think I'd bother with Swash unless I got epic precision either as Swash 12 or rogue 10 Crippling Strike. Hence my interest in whether it's only a half bonus like sneak attack or full like death attack.

swashbuckler + assassin is tempting if it fits your toons rp.

[zhazz]

swashbuckler + assassin is tempting if it fits your toons rp.

Swashbuckler + Duelist is also a good combo. You get some bonus free AC from your intelligence, and at Duelist 7, you also get a free +1 to Deflection AC (non-stacking) per 6 base ranks in Parry, for a total of +5.

[chad878262]

Swashbuckler is a base class that lends itself to several stopping points, which is obviously nice...

SB5 - This is where any gish going for INT to damage stops as by taking SB5 they are reducing their maximum caster level. This is also where other builds just looking to build for INT to damage would stop.

SB12/14/16 - Epic Precision/Weakening Crit./Evasion. I have put these three together because it definitely becomes a question of what you want to build and are willing to give up. SB16/WM7/D7 is a great Rapier (or Spear) wielding build for example. However, to the point above, SB14/A9/D7 is also tempting (gives up crits, but death attack dice are more reliable and synergize well with Epic Precision). Of course some limited similar play could be provided by going SB16/R7/D7, but with so few Rogue levels the HitS ability would be near useless, except when you have duelist haste up as an escape.

SB19/20 - usually 20 since at this point going for SB20/D10 makes the most sense, but there are some niche builds that go SB19/D7/X4 where X can be Anointed Knight/Warrior of Darkness for example. Could also go SB19/WM7/IB4 for a Kukri PTWF crit build that can apply a LOT of wounding/weakening crits while still getting *some* INT to AC...

Personally I think we did FAR better at buffing the Swashbuckler class than the Barbarian. While Barbarian became *the* top grade A melee / non-caster class where B20/ANYTHING10 is simply better than everyone else, the Swashbuckler changes and where you get certain abilities have simply expanded them where there are multiple NICE builds you can make, but nothing that turned them in to the best class for everything.

[zhazz]

Personally I think we did FAR better at buffing the Swashbuckler class than the Barbarian. While Barbarian became *the* top grade A melee / non-caster class where B20/ANYTHING10 is simply better than everyone else, the Swashbuckler changes and where you get certain abilities have simply expanded them where there are multiple NICE builds you can make, but nothing that turned them in to the best class for everything.

Amen to that!

Barbarian feels way too strong for a modified base class, when compared to the Swashbuckler (SB). Mainly due to two reasons:

1. Investing deep into SB makes it really strong, but those strengths (crit debuffs) are negated by crit immunes*
2. Getting encumbered disable most of the SB features, making it worse than a Fighter

* = Undeads, elementals, shapeshifters, constructs, treants? (unsure), some epic level dragons/fiends, several DM event named monsters, and some spells (PvP mostly)

Sticking to the topic at hand, I can sadly say that I don't currently find it worth to go beyond SB 12, since:

• Weakening Critical at 14 is too easily negated (see above)
• SB 12 + Rogue 4 is better than SB 16 to get Evasion, since it also nets you Uncanny Dodge
• Slippery Mind at 17 is nice, but Protection From Alignment will block most, if not all, mind-affection spells
• Wounding Critical at 19 is also too easily negated (see above)
• Epic levels of SB is too weak to even consider, when compared to 10 levels of a PrC

[Valefort]

You can go for rather unsual STR swashies if you're worried about really not doing well vs crit immune but it'll remain subpar, it's the nature of the swash abilities, shine brightly vs most things and not all vs some, particulary undead

[chad878262]

While I understand your concerns on the surface, I disagree that weakening critical isn't worth it. Wounding Crit, while it can be better, is also very limiting since you only are left with 11 levels to play with though. As a rogue (crippling strike) I can tell you once his spells are gone the Frost Giant King can't do anything to you do to his STR being debuffed to nothing. So a SB with wounding/weakening critical would make short work of him. While it does not work on all enemies, there are some (FGK is only one example).

That said (and at the risk of sounding like a broken record) it continues to be my hope that with the server split coming (hopefully soonish?) our wonderful area builders will be able to start adding more areas that give different challenges and allow some underserved abilities to shine, at least a little.

[Steve]

Swashbuckler (12), Assassin (10), Invisible Blade (5), Monk (3)

Max AC: 58
Max AB: 41; +4 from Flanking...and denying DEX when attacking from HiPS)
Max DMG: 38 (x 4 avg. per stealth attack = 156 per round) + 9 EW = 165

Don't forget Death Attack!

[Zkenic]

Swashbuckler (12), Assassin (10), Invisible Blade (5), Monk (3)

Max AC: 58
Max AB: 41; +4 from Flanking...and denying DEX when attacking from HiPS)
Max DMG: 38 (x 4 avg. per stealth attack = 156 per round) + 9 EW = 165

Don't forget Death Attack!

Yeah SB has some excellent builds, just remember the multi-class penalty if you are planning SB with most base classes, as no race as SB as a favored class and the xp penalty sucks, especially when you hit epic levels.

[Darkcloud777]

Here is a build I made. He is pretty good.
http://nwn2db.com/build/?273022

[DaloLorn]

Swashbuckler (12), Assassin (10), Invisible Blade (5), Monk (3)

Max AC: 58
Max AB: 41; +4 from Flanking...and denying DEX when attacking from HiPS)
Max DMG: 38 (x 4 avg. per stealth attack = 156 per round) + 9 EW = 165

Don't forget Death Attack!

Yeah SB has some excellent builds, just remember the multi-class penalty if you are planning SB with most base classes, as no race as SB as a favored class and the xp penalty sucks, especially when you hit epic levels.

Humans, half-elves, and half-drow have SB as a favoured class. Technically.