Let Cavestalker Stack with Ranger for Bane of Enemies

[Zkenic]

Title kind of says it all. I feel like Cavestalker should stack with Ranger for Bane of Enemies for a few reasons. I don't see it as very likely to succeed, but I figured Id try.

1) Cavestalker is required for UD rangers - I was looking at rolling up a drow ranger. There is really no option if you want to play in the UD other than picking up cavestalker.

2) Cavestalker requirement hurts the non-30 leveling for UD Rangers - On the surface you can go ranger and dip into pretty much any prestige class to bolster your character. Ranger26/4(anything really) types of builds are easy to do on the surface but hurt when you are playing in the UD with a ECL +2 race and are also required to take at least 3 cavestalker levels. You are looking at not getting Bane of Enemies until at least level 27(29). I know people usually assume balancing at 30, but for someone like me who likes to roll new characters it really hurts to assume every build starts and ends already at 30.

3) PTWF/One Shot is already tied to ranger level 21 - Cavestalker already delays getting PTWF/One Shot. The requirement of 21ranger for these feats also limits prestige class spamming for focused ranger characters.

Well, there you go.

[chad878262]

What does the ranger give up if this change is implemented? Specific races qualify for cave stalker just by being a ranger so why wouldn't everyone go r20/cs10?

While I agree if making a underdark ranger, cave stalker is required, then thing they need is at CS2, not 10. Cave stalker gives feats, AC and other special benefits and currently there are various arguments to go R26/CS4, R23/CS7 or R21/CS9. However, if you also gain access to bane of enemies why wouldn't you give up the bonus epic feats in exchange for 3 AC, 8% displacement, and all the other goodies?

[Zkenic]

Ill do the comparison against 21ranger/9cavestalker because PWTF/Oneshot is amazing and you don't get that with 20/10. (1) Ranger 30 (2)Ranger 26/Cavestalker4 v (3)Ranger21/Cavestalker9

(1) 2 more damage on favored emeies(as per Vale that FE is calculated at ranger level/5 +1), 3 epic feats, 18 more skill points.
(2) 1AC, 2 epic feats, 10 skill points, 1 more damage on every favored enemy. (Ranger abilities underground)
(3) 2 AC, 8% concealment(Is this supposed to be any good?), +2hide/ms, +2 listen, gaseous form, and +1dex +2 tumble +4survival in some underground maps. (ranger abilities underground)

Going 20ranger/10cavestalker gives you 1 dex, 3 survival underground and 1 more AC by losing PWTF or Oneshot (and at the moment Bane of Enemies, making it a non-starter).

I think the skill points are mostly negligible, rangers usually are not hurting for skills, especially as a drow with +2int.

So you have 2 epic feats v 1 AC, 8% concealment, +2hide/ms/listen, and a little bump in some underdark maps. I think that is a fair trade. Extra epic feats could be used for AC feats, self concealement(lol) if you really want that 10ish % concealment, or for getting expose weakness earlier and other better epic feat choices.

Edit - These comparisons also do not take into account that surface rangers can dip classes and keep 21 ranger easier. Example, 21ranger/9assassin. An UD ranger would need to do, at least, 18ranger/3cavestalker/9assassin. UD ranger loses out on oneshot/ptwf for pretty much the exact same build. Without ptwf that is one less attack out of HiPS, which is quite valuable. At least give the UD ranger bane of enemies still.

[YourMoveHolyMan]

I do not see how the UD rangers lose Bane of Enemies in your examples, they just get it delayed. Which, as one of the more powerful races, there is a reason drow are behind the curve with the ECL.

[chad878262]

Hidden: show

Ill do the comparison against 21ranger/9cavestalker because PWTF/Oneshot is amazing and you don't get that with 20/10. (1) Ranger 30 (2)Ranger 26/Cavestalker4 v (3)Ranger21/Cavestalker9

(1) 2 more damage on favored emeies(as per Vale that FE is calculated at ranger level/5 +1), 3 epic feats, 18 more skill points.
(2) 1AC, 2 epic feats, 10 skill points, 1 more damage on every favored enemy. (Ranger abilities underground)
(3) 2 AC, 8% concealment(Is this supposed to be any good?), +2hide/ms, +2 listen, gaseous form, and +1dex +2 tumble +4survival in some underground maps. (ranger abilities underground)

Going 20ranger/10cavestalker gives you 1 dex, 3 survival underground and 1 more AC by losing PWTF or Oneshot (and at the moment Bane of Enemies, making it a non-starter).

I think the skill points are mostly negligible, rangers usually are not hurting for skills, especially as a drow with +2int.

So you have 2 epic feats v 1 AC, 8% concealment, +2hide/ms/listen, and a little bump in some underdark maps. I think that is a fair trade. Extra epic feats could be used for AC feats, self concealement(lol) if you really want that 10ish % concealment, or for getting expose weakness earlier and other better epic feat choices.

Edit - These comparisons also do not take into account that surface rangers can dip classes and keep 21 ranger easier. Example, 21ranger/9assassin. An UD ranger would need to do, at least, 18ranger/3cavestalker/9assassin. UD ranger loses out on oneshot/ptwf for pretty much the exact same build. Without ptwf that is one less attack out of HiPS, which is quite valuable. At least give the UD ranger bane of enemies still.

Comparing apples to apples requires a baseline. Your comparison seems to have been 2->1 and then 3->2. In addition, the priest (sup YMHM!) is correct that none of your examples loses PTWF or One Shot. Instead Lets compare R30, R26/CS4, R21/CS9 and R20/CS10...

R30:
Gets 7 FE's and +7 + 2d6 damage against all FE's, 3 epic bonus feats, and 198 skill points with 10 INT.

R26/CS4
Gets +3 AC (full tumble + hide of stone 1), 7 FE's and +6 + 2d6 damage against FE's, 2 Epic bonus feats, + 2 Listen and 190 skill points with 10 INT.
COMPARISON - + 3 AC, - 1 epic feat, -1 damage, -8 SP. No question this is more than a fair trade and literally would be a great dip PRC even if it wasn't for the must have underdark ability for HiPS and Camouflage to work in natural caves.

R21/CS9
Gets +4 AC (full tumble + hide of stone 2), 7 FE's and +5 + 2d6 damage against FE's, 0 Epic bonus feats, +4 Listen, +1 DEX, Gaseous Form, Blindfight, 8% Concealment, +2 hide/move silently, and 180 skill points with 10 INT.

R20/CS10
Gets +5 AC (full tumble + hide of stone 3), 7 FE's and +5 damage against FE's, 0 Epic bonus feats, +4 Listen, +2 DEX, Gaseous Form, Blindfight, 8% Concealment, +2 hide/move silently, and 178 skill points

Note that if wiki is to be believed, Cavestalker also gets Spellcraft so you could throw an additional +3 save vs. spells over pure ranger.

So if you gave CS10 the ability to get Bane of Enemies, what purpose is there to take Ranger to 21 (or more likely 26)? While you get fewer skill points, the mechanical benefit you get to Listen, Hide and Move Silently makes up for it quite a bit. 8% concealment isn't great, but it is something (just ask anyone that plays Assassin and makes use of Ghostly Visage).

all in all the point is R26/CS4 is already a no comparison power up to Ranger for almost no cost. the Cavestalker 9 version essentially boils down to losing 2 epic feats vs. the CS4 version, but gaining +1 AC, concealment, +2 Listen, hide and move silently, +1 DEX, Blindfight (saves a spell slot at least) and concealment which is certainly more than most epic feats provide. Giving R20/CS10 BoE and/or PTWF/One Shot would make CS a no brainer pick... Question, does the DEX +1/2 stack with Cats Grace? I honestly don't know, but if it does that would make it even more crazy no brainer of a decision.

I get what your stance is, but this would be a flat power-up and Rangers are, in my opinion one of the most perfectly balanced classes with or without Cavestalker. I prefer not to change that.