Frenzy has double taxation

[blacksoft]

Heck if the issue is AC for you I would even say allow Ice Troll Berserker to have some synergy with Frenzy, which although there is no "Mighty" or "Epic" versions would still give +4 Natural AC while under Frenzy for those that don't have +4 Natural Armor Amulet.

Reducing the AC malus from 4 down to maybe 2 for 10 levels wouldn't be the worst buff in the world and isn't a huge deal, but that doesn't mean that FB10 needs it to be a viable build choice either.

Yes, the issue is just the -4 AC on frenzy, that is the point of the thread. So, you are willing to admit that adding +4 natural AC is okay and will agree that removing from -4 to -2 makes sense. So are you really arguing?? It sounds like you actually agree... and only argue whether it should be completely removed...

[chad878262]

I think you might be misunderstanding a few points.

1. Improving a class, PRC or ability is a buff. In this case, improving Frenzy by reducing or removing the AC malus is a buff because it currently has a negative.

2. Increasing Frenzy duration and/or allowing an existing Feat to work with Frenzy, while a buff has relevance to the discussion because Frenzy is similar to Rage and other Rage specific feats (extend rage / extra rage) also work with Frenzy. The point is arguing for 'buffing' Frenzy based on similarities to Rage is coming from a standpoint of being consistent with changes that were previously made. Meanwhile arguing for removal or reduction in an existing malus is just saying the ability has no use due to that malus, which isn't really the case. Now, perhaps an argument that would work is to indicate that Barbarian Standard Rage had it's AC penalty removed, thus Frenzy could use similar treatment. I'm not in QC anymore and don't know what they might decide, but I doubt they would give anywhere near the same buffs to FB that were given to Barbarian. However, they might consider reviewing Frenzy to give some buff such as reduction or removal of the AC malus under those conditions.

3. Frenzied Berserker is top 5 in terms of PRC distribution. Only Assassin, Weapon Master, Shadow Dancer and Arcane Scholar PRC's are utilized more. However, that doesn't really answer your question as to how many take it past 5 and/or use Frenzy. (source: viewtopic.php?f=136&t=61769&hilit=class+distribution ) I don't think there is any way (nor would it be worth the effort to build) to track how many times in a given period someone clicks the Frenzy ability in game.

Perhaps the issue is in the way I have worded things previously... I simply think you need to approach your argument from a standpoint of comparing and contrasting existing mechanics. For example, as I show above Frenzy as an ability is similar to rage so you could argue since Standard Rage had the AC malus removed so should Frenzy. Now the counter to that is Frenzy is closer to Whirlwind Rage which does get a -2 AC (though only if using a shield and this is countered by the increased dodge AC). Finally, consider that Dervish Dance is more fair to compare to Frenzy since it comes from a PRC vs. Barbarian which comes from a class which requires significant investment. DD gives +5 AB/Damage which is similar to FB +10 STR, but can be stacked with +3 / +4 STR item. In addition, Dervish doesn't get the extra benefits that come with Frenzy (extra attack and deathward).

So if you look at the above you'll see that Frenzy has some strong points as well as negatives. Perhaps the AC malus could be removed as well as the bonus attack, thus bringing it closer to being in line with Dervish Dance? You still get Deathward, but are penalized with the damage on turn.

When looking at balancing a class, prc or ability it's important to look at many aspects of other classes/prc's/abilities and try to find the one's that are most similar and then look at what each one's strengths and weaknesses are. This will then allow you to make an argument for what you would like to see changed with a full understanding of the comparisons.

Frenzied Berserker is far more prevalent/popular than Dervish, about four times as many PC's include FB levels as those that include Dervish levels so the PRC is not unpopular. Would removing the AC malus be worth losing the extra APR? Perhaps that is a better argument since it would not be a flat increase in power, it would simply be taking away some of the offensive power in order to get a defensive bump.

[blacksoft]

I think you might be misunderstanding a few points.

1. Improving a class, PRC or ability is a buff. In this case, improving Frenzy by reducing or removing the AC malus is a buff because it currently has a negative.

2. Increasing Frenzy duration and/or allowing an existing Feat to work with Frenzy, while a buff has relevance to the discussion because Frenzy is similar to Rage and other Rage specific feats (extend rage / extra rage) also work with Frenzy. The point is arguing for 'buffing' Frenzy based on similarities to Rage is coming from a standpoint of being consistent with changes that were previously made... Now, perhaps an argument that would work is to indicate that Barbarian Standard Rage had it's AC penalty removed, thus Frenzy could use similar treatment.

3. Frenzied Berserker is top 5 in terms of PRC distribution. Only Assassin, Weapon Master, Shadow Dancer and Arcane Scholar PRC's are utilized more. However, that doesn't really answer your question as to how many take it past 5 and/or use Frenzy. (source: viewtopic.php?f=136&t=61769&hilit=class+distribution ) I don't think there is any way (nor would it be worth the effort to build) to track how many times in a given period someone clicks the Frenzy ability in game.

Perhaps the issue is in the way I have worded things previously... I simply think you need to approach your argument from a standpoint of comparing and contrasting existing mechanics. ...
So if you look at the above you'll see that Frenzy has some strong points as well as negatives. Perhaps the AC malus could be removed as well as the bonus attack, thus bringing it closer to being in line with Dervish Dance? You still get Deathward, but are penalized with the damage on turn.

When looking at balancing a class, prc or ability it's important to look at many aspects of other classes/prc's/abilities and try to find the one's that are most similar and then look at what each one's strengths and weaknesses are. This will then allow you to make an argument for what you would like to see changed with a full understanding of the comparisons.

Frenzied Berserker is far more prevalent/popular than Dervish, about four times as many PC's include FB levels as those that include Dervish levels so the PRC is not unpopular. Would removing the AC malus be worth losing the extra APR? Perhaps that is a better argument since it would not be a flat increase in power, it would simply be taking away some of the offensive power in order to get a defensive bump.

Here are your three main arguments: 1) Any change mitigating a weakness is a buff therefore need to proceed with caution 2) Ask using relevance and precedence 3) FB is already popular so no need to make any changes

I will respond to 2) and 3) as 1) is only an issue as far as 2) and 3) are concerned.

2) Yes, we have a precedent with the change made to Rage of getting rid of the -2 AC due to making rage buff almost unreasonable due to the affect -2 AC had on the barbarian player base. A -4 AC on FB is an equivalent of losing 8 DEX or not slotting one +4 AC item. THAT IS HUGE. Using the rage change as a base point, it shows us that the player base will rarely use Frenzy despite its other benefits.

3) FB is popular at level 5. It is not popular after level 5. I think we would see more build choices using 10 levels of FB if the AC debuff eventually fell away at level 10 FB. i.e FB 10 is unpopular. removing AC debuff has no buff impact for the popular 1-5 levels of FB so this argument does not hold.

Going back to 1) We would have proceeded with caution in fixing the frenzy buff as it doesnt buff the popular 5 levels of FB, takes into account precedent of Barbarian (whether its a base class vs PRC does not change the fact that hitting Frenzy on your character is the quicker way to die rather than just leaving that button alone)

[Valefort]

Frenzy is underplayed but as was pointed a couple of times the PRC itself is powerful so I'd rather not lower the penalties for using it, on the other hand the benefits could be gradually increased after FB 5. No power creep for FB 5 builds and making FB 10 a more interesting venue that way.

[qwertyh88]

Is it possible to get an updated 2020 stats on class distributions and the like that Chad referred to?

viewtopic.php?f=136&t=61769&hilit=class+distribution

[Valefort]

I should still have the program lying around, I'll ask for a vault snapshot.

[qwertyh88]

Thanks Vale!
+1

[blacksoft]

Frenzy is underplayed...,on the other hand the benefits could be gradually increased after FB 5. No power creep for FB 5 builds and making FB 10 a more interesting venue that way.

Yes, please; the gradual increase of benefit after FB level 5 is exactly what I am suggesting.

Also, thanks for responding!

[c2k]

The real culprit here is gear. The gear that would make Frenzy bearable doesn't exist on this server, or at the very least is rare in a decent form. (Vamp Weapons, Damage Reduction, etc.)

You can probably make it work if you are building a Fighter/Rogue/WpnMaster/FB though, since you can take UMD to make it a little stronger.

[Steve]

Vamp weapons are actually quite common these days. Some significant change to the RIG was made in the recent past.

I'd offer that upping the duration or the effect of Inspire Frenzy would be a great addition to the PrC, since it benefits others in Group play.

[c2k]

So Inspire Frenzy, I would be for changing this to be more group friendly, because as it is, its a troll ability. I would say lower the bonus, and decrease the damage others get from the ability, because in most cases, a Frenzied Berserker will kill their own party with this ability.

Its probably the only thing about Frenzied Berserker I would ever consider tweaking.


EDIT: My statement about vamp weapons and DR gear is that the gear itself never has any EBs, so unless you take UMD or are a caster of sort, you will have to use the weakest form of the item.

[Steve]

I have acquired through the RIG a few EB+3 and Vamp +1 of +2 weapons in the last year. And even a +3 AC 3/- DR armor some weeks ago.

I know it isn't Epic level gear, but yeah, it's already proven +3 gear can allow you to see and experience the entirety of the Server, and anything above that is just personal desire to have the absolute best because you've OOC done and seen everything, so little options left but to be a gear (germbag).

[c2k]

I never even saw +3 gear exist with that. But ok, gear like that would help frenzy.