Build Challenge: 2H medium weapon build + Epic Dodge

[Steve]

How would you do it?

Reqs:

• Epic Dodge
• 2-handed medium-size weapon (of choice or Large weapon if you're adventurous!)
• minimal min/maxing

Extra points for viability in our Sever context!

[c2k]

Kind of cheesy, but maybe a Strongheart halfling with Rapier going Fighter 10/Wpnmaster 7/Whirling Dervish 8/Thief Acrobat 5.

[zhazz]

Here is my take on it.

Fighter 12 / Whirling Dervish 8 / Frenzied Berserker 5 / Thief Acrobat 5

AB isn't the highest at only 39, but that is hard to do anything about given the Dexterity requirement for Epic Dodge, mixed with it being a 2-Hander.
Damage is decent, and so is the AC, even when un-buffed.

A completely different take would be Bard 20 / Shadow Dancer 10. That one is a bit too easy though.

[zhazz]

Kind of cheesy, but maybe a Strongheart halfling with Rapier going Fighter 10/Wpnmaster 7/Whirling Dervish 8/Thief Acrobat 5.

Are 2-Handed Finesse Halflings still possible on the server? I thought that got fixed years ago.

[chad878262]

Epic Dodge requires 25 DEX so I am not really sure why you would go Whirling Dervish instead of Shadow Dancer. I also don't necessarily see the benefit of Weapon Master for such a build since you really need to get some sustainable damage.

The way I see it, the biggest issue is damage so I would say a good way to handle this would be to go for Rapier and/or Spear user.... Something like SB10/Duelist 10/Shadow Dancer 5/Thief Acrobat 5 with 25 DEX and the rest to INT could solve the damage issue pretty well. If you are looking more for a medium weapon meaning like Longsword or whatever I would go B20/SD5/TA5 so that you could still have decent STR while Raging and have your epic dodgy goodness.

All in all I think such a PC really wants to go Rapier/INT route to get double INT to damage plus the added damage and AC from Duelist. If going Drow/Tiefling/Air Genasi you could probably end up with ~25 DEX and ~18 or maybe even 20 INT then use +3 DEX and +4 INT items. However, the added STR and flat damage boost from standard rage barbarian would also work.

[Ambaryerno]

Man, my MotLS class is MADE for this challenge.

[qwertyh88]

SB10/Duelist 10/Shadow Dancer 5/Thief Acrobat 5

The build above cannot be done with the 3 before epic rules in place. Whirling Dervish must be used instead of Shadow Dancer.

I would recommend SB 12/Duelist 6/WD 8/4 TA if going SB base class.

Otherwise. Go Bard base class like 8Bard/10 Duelist/7SD/ 5TA

Or combine both bard and SB for

Bard 4/SB 6/Duelist 10/SD 10

[chad878262]

ah that's right...forgot that SD requires 10 hide while WD only requires 8.

You are correct that going for SB12 is something to consider for epic precision, I just through a quick split together as the main point was upping the medium weapon damage since epic dodge without sneak dice is going to be pretty painful to level.

Here is a fun one you might like Steve...

W5/EK5/BS10/SD10. Probably only really works with Drow and damage is pretty pitiful on top of CL only being 19. However, could definitely get Epic Dodge while using a rapier. I wouldn't play it, but it does give you 8th level spells on top of epic dodge.

[Steve]

Some interesting options! Food for thought.

I came up with: Rogue 13 / Assassin 9 / Thief Acrobat 5 / Bodyguard 3

Lots of perks, pitiful AC and will be a UMD maximizer. But when it works, it works great.

And...if Springboard works from Stealth, that would be a killer move to disable an opponent.

[c2k]

What really throws it off is having to 2 hand a medium weapon. Its so bad for Dex builds unless you cheese out halfling. And yes it still works if you take the Monkey Grip feat, according to the wiki.

[chad878262]

pitiful AC

41 AC is generally going to be fine and really yours is 43 since as you say, UMD. Being able to buff to 47 when needed on top of epic dodge is more than fine on a HiPS based build. Personally I think you should max bluff since if you can acquire Reilli's Belt of Mischief Feint will make leveling far more enjoyable. The bigger issue is definitely attack bonus since you're looking at 32 w/ a +4 weapon so you are going to be living off heroism pots and sometimes greater heroism+bless+aid pots. Even with HiPS 32 is generally not going to cut it.

As I have been playing a similar type of build for nearly 2 months now (not with Thief Acrobat, but using methods other than HiPS for sneak attacks) I can tell you that up to 21 Feint is very useful. I know it will work well in Trollclaws, Reaching Woods and Nashkel Mines even without fully maximizing Bluff (but certainly with gearing to make bluff pretty decent. It won't work on *all* enemies, but certainly enough that I don't feel it should be considered a 'wasted feat' and if you can get it from the belt, all the better!

[zhazz]

Epic Dodge requires 25 DEX so I am not really sure why you would go Whirling Dervish instead of Shadow Dancer. I also don't necessarily see the benefit of Weapon Master for such a build since you really need to get some sustainable damage.

The way I see it, the biggest issue is damage so I would say a good way to handle this would be to go for Rapier and/or Spear user.... Something like SB10/Duelist 10/Shadow Dancer 5/Thief Acrobat 5 with 25 DEX and the rest to INT could solve the damage issue pretty well. If you are looking more for a medium weapon meaning like Longsword or whatever I would go B20/SD5/TA5 so that you could still have decent STR while Raging and have your epic dodgy goodness.

All in all I think such a PC really wants to go Rapier/INT route to get double INT to damage plus the added damage and AC from Duelist. If going Drow/Tiefling/Air Genasi you could probably end up with ~25 DEX and ~18 or maybe even 20 INT then use +3 DEX and +4 INT items. However, the added STR and flat damage boost from standard rage barbarian would also work.

Rapier cannot be Two-Handed, except by a Halfling or Gnome. When equipping a Rapier the game reports "Weapon equipped as a one-handed weapon". The character sheet also don't multiply the damage coming from Strength by 1.5. And in the combat log the damage matches what is show on the sheet.

Only Duelist option for a Two-Handed is a Spear. Which cannot be used with Weapon Finesse.

Maybe c2k's suggestion works:

Kind of cheesy, but maybe a Strongheart halfling with Rapier going Fighter 10/Wpnmaster 7/Whirling Dervish 8/Thief Acrobat 5.

I made a quick test of this. Level 1 Halfling Fighter with Weapon Finesse, 14 Strength, and 20 Dexterity.
Unarmed AB: 7 (1 BAB + 1 Small Stature + 5 Dex Mod)
Rapier AB: 4 (1 BAB + Small Stature + 2 Str Mod)

Combat log confirm the ABs above.

Unarmed Dmg: 1d2 + 2 Str Mod
Rapier Dmg: 1d6 + 3 Str Mod (1.5 multiplier)

So while it is possibly to two-hand a rapier as a Halfling, and gain the 1.5 multiplier because of it, doing so won't allow the use of Weapon Finesse.

Edit: Added Monkey Grip test.

What really throws it off is having to 2 hand a medium weapon. Its so bad for Dex builds unless you cheese out halfling. And yes it still works if you take the Monkey Grip feat, according to the wiki.

I tested this quickly as well. Adding in Monkey Grip does allow for Weapon Finesse to apply, and the 1.5 multiplier also applies. Power Attack subtracts AB, but doesn't add any bonus damage.

The combat log, however, states: "Weapon equipped as a one-handed weapon", and the game also portrays it as such. Both for holding the weapon, and swinging it.

Whether or not the build challenge here allow for cheesy bug usage, however, is up to Steve to determine.

[Steve]

Yeah, I could drop Assassin entirely for something with Fighter 8 and focus on Bluff. Feinting is just so much better with PTWF!

Thief Acrobat is definitely the key to this challenge it seems!

[chad878262]

Feinting is just so much better with PTWF!

I guess, but I must say going sword and board with Feint is very nice for the defensive benefits.

[zhazz]

How would you do it?

Reqs:

• Epic Dodge
• 2-handed medium-size weapon (of choice or Large weapon if you're adventurous!)
• minimal min/maxing

Extra points for viability in our Sever context!

As the creator of the build challenge. I'd say you should decide on whether or not we are allowed to use cheesy bugs, such as the Rapier Monkey Grip Weapon Finesse shenanigans