On Evil Characters and Smite/Detect Evil

[Ambaryerno]

So I've been developing a concept for an evil character, something I don't normally play, and I was curious about spells such as Detect and Smite Evil, and how exactly to handle RPing these spells.

Now, the character I have in mind is more of the "Selfish Evil" variety. They're not evil of the Card Carrying persuasion, out doing evil deeds just because it's fun. They wouldn't be out to serve the whims of an evil God or further the aims of any particular evil organization. More than anything else, they just want to be left alone. They probably don't even see THEMSELVES as necessarily evil, either. However the reason that I wouldn't see them as falling under a Neutral alignment is because they'd very much be unfettered by morality in their actions. All they care about is what benefits them, and will take whatever actions they deem necessary to see it through.

So how exactly would this work if the character is around someone who casts Detect Evil, or if they happen to be too close to a Smite Evil spell going off? They're not someone necessarily actively engaging in evil, or pursuing an evil agenda. They're simply someone who has no compunctions against kicking the dog if it's the most expedient way to what they want at a given moment.

[chad878262]

Detect evil doesn't exist on this server and smite evil isn't really a valid way to call someone out as evil since you'd be taking action before knowing the individual is evil

[Steve]

DM RULINGS

Alignment detection
Smite Evil is not to be used as a substitute to Detect Evil in non combat situations in order to detect alignment. It is a breach of the Paladin Code to strike someone to slay them when there is uncertainty as to whether death is deserved. The feedback given in the combat log should not be used to determine whether a PC is evil or not. This extends to any spells that have their effects only resolve on a certain alignment.

[Ambaryerno]

Detect evil doesn't exist on this server and smite evil isn't really a valid way to call someone out as evil since you'd be taking action before knowing the individual is evil

I see. I mainly asked about Detect because some PCs around the campfire the other night were talking about using it, so I guess it was just an RP thing.

Are there any AoE vs. Evil spells/abilities that I may need to consider?

[chad878262]

Steve's posts should answer that question, but to make it clear what that DM ruling essentially means is that players cannot use any means available to ascertain alignment. Thus any RP between characters related to detecting alignment in any way is not enforceable (i.e. players cannot enforce any means to know your character is evil other than your actual IC actions). If a DM is not present and someone tries to metagame your alignment via spell or smite or whatever they are breaking the rules.

[Ambaryerno]

Steve's posts should answer that question, but to make it clear what that DM ruling essentially means is that players cannot use any means available to ascertain alignment. Thus any RP between characters related to detecting alignment in any way is not enforceable (i.e. players cannot enforce any means to know your character is evil other than your actual IC actions). If a DM is not present and someone tries to metagame your alignment via spell or smite or whatever they are breaking the rules.

So basically, if I'm in a Party and someone uses a vs Evil spell while we're fighting a mob that splashes my character by accident, it would be assumed IC to have never happened.

[Blackman D]

yes, that in particular would be breaking the alignment detection rule and pvp rules, kinda hard to "accidentally" hit someone with a weapon without setting hostile tho

but say someone has aura vs evil up, which does divine damage against evil, and they "not so accidentally, accidentally" hit you and trigger the divine damage, they cant turn around and scream about how evil you are and that the attack was justified

[Ambaryerno]

Gotcha. Good to know, though it means I won't get the pleasure of screwing with an overzealous Paladin.

Out of curiosity, how would such a scenario be handled in PvP? The character is evil because of their selfishness and lack of moral compass, but not Big E evil seeking to carry out ACTUAL evil deeds (basically, someone like Bishop in the NWN2 Campaign).

[Blackman D]

well there is a thin line between neutral evil and chaotic good

the simple answer would be just think of a mind set you want and stick to it, if you are self serving but fairly non violent then i would say you are going to also not be one for heated talks, not that you would "back down" but more that you would find ways out of it

and if you are self serving but like bishop who doesnt give a damn if he needs to put an arrow in someones head, then... ere the arrows fly

[c2k]

Paladins would break ethos acting on assumptions or just knowing you have evil intent. They need to see you in action and, if Tyrran, the response must be just, not excessive.

[Ambaryerno]

well there is a thin line between neutral evil and chaotic good

the simple answer would be just think of a mind set you want and stick to it, if you are self serving but fairly non violent then i would say you are going to also not be one for heated talks, not that you would "back down" but more that you would find ways out of it

and if you are self serving but like bishop who doesnt give a damn if he needs to put an arrow in someones head, then... ere the arrows fly

It's not so much about how to play the character themselves, but how would Detect/Etc. Evil work against such a character in PnP?

[chad878262]

In forgotten tasks alignments are tangible forces... if you are evil alignment then spells and abilities against evil affect you.

[Ambaryerno]

So basically, someone who has no moral compunction against kicking puppies if it gets them what they want but doesn't actively seek out puppies to kick would still light up the same under those spells as a card-carrying Banite.

[Rhifox]

If you are evil alignment in pnp/Forgotten Realms, and using 3rd edition, it works like this: https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectEvil.htm

A non-cleric evil character will show up to a paladin anywhere from faintly to moderately evil, depending on their HD. As on BG we often count level 30 PCs as level 15 for the purposes of lore, a max level character on BG would show up as moderately evil unless they are a cleric of an evil god, in which case they'd show up as overwhelmingly evil.

Further exploration of detect evil and its implications can be found in 2e sources, which go into the roleplay implications a lot more. I've provided some snippets below (from 2e Player's Handbook and Complete Paladin's Handbook).

How to detect evil, and how it feels to detect evil:

The priest must concentrate--stop, have quiet, and intently seek to detect the aura--for at least one round to receive a reading. The spell requires the use of the priest's holy symbol as its material component, with the priest holding it before him.

Unlike other senses, the detection of evil works only when the paladin concentrates for one full round, remaining still and taking no other actions. Often, paladins close their eyes, lower their head, and clear their minds by focusing on their own breathing. Some paladins extend their palms, touch their foreheads with their fingers, or sweep their hands slowly in front of them. Details of the concentration routine vary from paladin to paladin, and each is free to come up with a unique routine. Once settled on a routine, the paladin should always execute it the same way.

Typical reactions include tingling in the fingertips, a warm flush, a cold chill, or a dull throb behind the eyes; the DM can make up sensations. Usually the sensation lasts only a moment.

Note that in 2e, unlike 3e, detect evil only typically detects evil if the target is: thinking violent or evil thoughts, has recently committed evil actions, intend to commit an evil action, or is "unshakably committed to an evil alignment" and high-level. Readings fluctuate based on intent: "If a vicious mugger hides in a closet, but plans to surrender rather than fight if discovered, a paladin may detect both faint and moderate sensations (fingertip itches alternating with pinpricks)."

Character alignment, however, is revealed only under unusual circumstances: characters who are strongly aligned, who do not stray from their faith, and who are of at least 9th level might radiate good or evil if intent upon appropriate actions.

How a paladin might respond to someone they detect as evil:

Evil characters.
Because he is duty-bound to suppress evil, a paladin won't tolerate an evil PC. He may take the evil PC into custody, physically restrain him, or demand his expulsion from the party. If all else fails, the paladin severs his ties with the party and go his own way. In any event, inaction is unacceptable.

A paladin finds it difficult, if not impossible, to avoid contact with evil NPCs. They're everywhere: walking down a street, dining at an inn, shopping at a bazaar. A paladin's ethos doesn't compel him to attack or even confront all evil NPCs; in many cases, hostile confrontations could be counterproductive, particularly if such an action distracts the paladin from a more important mission, or if it triggers retaliation from the NPC's companions against innocent bystanders.

Time and circumstances permitting, a paladin may question evil NPCs, follow them, or make inquiries about them. None of these actions violate a paladin's ethos when used in moderation. (However, spying and similar actions should be a last resort, because they connote deception). A paladin walks on shaky ground, however, the moment he begins an association with an evil NPC that could be perceived as friendly or compliant.

While most faiths accept the standard definition (that is, the definition in the PH), some define evil more narrowly. It's possible, for instance, for a church to condemn a particular neutral religion as blasphemous, in which case a paladin may be obliged to destroy the followers of the neutral religion as if they were evil (the Votary, described in Chapter 4, is one example). Conversely, a liberal church may require its paladins to eliminate only chaotic evil characters and creatures; other evil adversaries may be destroyed, imprisoned, or even tolerated, as decided by the individual paladin.

In short, Detect Evil is actually a much more lenient ability than is commonly assumed. Ergo, a character who is evil because of selfishness and lack of moral compass would, in 3e, show up only as faintly or moderately evil depending on level, and in 2e, only show up at all when they're thinking evil thoughts or planning/committing evil actions. In either case, a character who wants to detect evil has to take time and effort to actually detect it (it's not automatic), and even if they do detect it, they are not compelled to attack or even confront them unless they have proof/witness them committing an evil act.

[Ambaryerno]

Gotta say I prefer the 2e implementation, as it makes more sense in a number of ways. How does it contrast with 4e and 5e?