Thoughts on HIITS

[Tanlaus]

Hi, I’m Tanlaus and I am an addict...

I keep leveling new toons to test mechanics or gameplay I’m curious about. I’ve actually done a full fighter and Barb/FB a few months ago- charge and the various combat styles were interesting- but they seemed pretty solid and I didn’t have anything much to say.

My latest toy is a pure rogue that I just got to level 22.

I waited until 30 to give my thoughts on Phantoms, since mostly I feel like it’s good to play all the way through a class to really get a feel for it, but I do already have some thoughts I’d like to share.

Blinding strike is great. Huge help to rogues. I feel Phantoms should get it as well but that’s been brought up before.

HIITS at 21 is pretty great with a few caveats...

1) I’m leveling a UD toon. Not a ton of wide open spaces so being close enough to something solid to hide is probably much easier than on the surface.

2) it can be kind of buggy at times. Since you don’t have to drop out of combat to use it sometimes it will activate then your character will continue to attack or an AOO will trigger and the timer resets. Happens a lot until it is instant at 21.

3) sometimes I can be by a stone pillar or something and hide, come out of hiding to attack, without having moved, and when I try to hide again it I get the message there are no shadows nearby.

I have a feeling 2 and 3 are engine related and there is not much to be done about it.

My main issue with HIITS is how late in the game it becomes instant. It’s kind of the worst until it’s instant and then it’s an inferior limited version of HiPS. The problem is, if you do anything but pure rogue- minus assassin or shadow dancer- even rogue PRCS like guild thief, thief acrobat, or invisible blade, you don’t get an instant HIITS until mid to late epics.

My first thought is that maybe it’s a balance issue. Giving instant HIITS to a rogue too early could lead to some sort of power build... but with the standard 3 SD dip you can gets full on HiPS at 8, and assassins can get it by 14 (I think). Plus the eight levels of assassin give you spells and death attack.

If a pure rogue got instant HIITS at say 15, that still doesn’t beat an SD dip or going assassin and in my opinion is enough investment in rogue that there’s not a ton of power building you can do with that.... even emulating a monk/assassin build.

Another issue that this might address is something Chad in the ever changing numbers has brought up in his recent area posts. You reach a point past the mid teens where leveling really does become a grind. Something very hard to pull off if you happen to be soloing in a rogue, or even not soloing since sometimes you just need to shake aggro, when hiding is so difficult.

The difference between 20 and 21 was night and day. And even then still less powerful that a full HiPSter. I think maybe changing the timer up a bit, so that people don’t need to reach epic levels just to see if they can make HIITS work, might help open up a greater variety of rogue builds.

To me if there is any culprit in the power build equation it’s really the 3SD dip. Since you have to give up so little in terms of BAB or spell DCs to get so much in return. I’d be willing to bet if someone did another statistical breakdown of classes across the server you’d see a disproportionate number of shadow dancers but 90% up to level 3 and very few beyond.

Anyway, SD dips aside, I genuinely think it’s worth considering lowering the HIITS bar a bit to open up or make viable a wider variety of rogue builds, including pure rogue.

[chad878262]

I'll start with saying I agree with your post, but... (there is always a but )

Hide in the Shadows (HitS) was really designed for "pure" rogues (indeed, even taking a 3 level dip in for example Bodyguard means now you don't get instant HitS until 24). Because of this it was determined it shouldn't be given too early. Moving to 15 would be perfectly fine balance wise since a) anyone taking Assassin or Shadow Dancer doesn't care at all about HitS and b) taking 1 additional class moves HitS being instant to 18, 2 additional classes to 21 and 3 to 24 so staying pure or mostly pure is still beneficial. The main point for Rasael introducing HitS was to give folks an option that doesn't *require* the RP of either being an Assassin/Avenger or Shadow Dancer so giving HitS instant activation at Rogue 15 as you suggest still does require significant investment in Rogue while better supporting those who would like to mix in other great PRCs that allow for various paths in both RP and mechanics such as the one's you listed as well as others.

So in short, I would be fine with reducing the leveling for getting HitS down to instant activation by Rogue 15, but that is just me personally and in no way should be taken to suggest this is something that will definitely get done, just that I am fine with having the discussion.

Blinding strike is great. Huge help to rogues. I feel Phantoms should get it as well but that’s been brought up before.

Phantom's get Ghost Step (and other ki abilities), Rogue's get blinding strike... This is not to say Blinding Strike would somehow make Phantom OP, but it is nice for Rogue to have one thing that is *theirs* since like every other one of their abilities can be obtained by taking any number of PRC's or other classes. It frustrates the hell out of me that rogue PRCs grant abilities that Rogues already get, in some cases bringing very little extra to the table and in every case bringing more to the table for non-rogue's than they do for rogue's. Only base class that doesn't have any PRC that continues to give them what they should be focused on while also giving them something that addresses one or more weakness thy would otherwise have. But I digress, let's stick to the topics you brought up...

1) I’m leveling a UD toon. Not a ton of wide open spaces so being close enough to something solid to hide is probably much easier than on the surface.

While a fair statement, this is intended. Rogue's are far more 'trained' at finding places to hide in a city than out in the wilderness. HitS is fantastic for interiors (dungeons, houses, caves, etc.) but less good in open/exterior/natural areas. This is as it should be and a creative rogue player can still make it work by utilizing areas you can't walk such as cliff faces and the like.

2) it can be kind of buggy at times. Since you don’t have to drop out of combat to use it sometimes it will activate then your character will continue to attack or an AOO will trigger and the timer resets. Happens a lot until it is instant at 21.

3) sometimes I can be by a stone pillar or something and hide, come out of hiding to attack, without having moved, and when I try to hide again it I get the message there are no shadows nearby.

I have a feeling 2 and 3 are engine related and there is not much to be done about it.

You are correct and, to be fair if these could be fixed we would probably have straight up REPLACED HiPS with HitS. The main thing that makes HiPS so strong and causes the (many) debates that rage in these forums from time to time is the fact that HiPS is not *supposed* to work everywhere. Now, some will say that it really *should* work everywhere since you will always be within 10 feet of a shadow, but others will have varying degrees of opinion to the contrary. I really do not want to participate in those discussions since the point is moot (engine limitations). Regardless, while there are some issues with HitS, some are to the benefit of the player and some to the detriment and it still works pretty well. Side note, activate parry before activating HitS and you will solve the AoO or continuing the attack action after hiding. I found mapping Parry Mode to the "2" key and HitS to the "3" key made it pretty easy when testing to ensure that I could hide and then just wait a second or 2, turn off parry and attack for myself. This is not always needed, but if you need to make sure you take down the caster mob, or the mob with knockdown first this is a good way to ensure the game doesn't pick for you. The pillar thing is likely a matter of pixel hunting. In other words if you aren't in exactly the same spot it's not recognizing the placeable. While you may not have moved, even doing the attack action could change the location of your toon slightly. If this isn't the case, I don't know, lots of weird stuff in this game.

To me if there is any culprit in the power build equation it’s really the 3SD dip. Since you have to give up so little in terms of BAB or spell DCs to get so much in return. I’d be willing to bet if someone did another statistical breakdown of classes across the server you’d see a disproportionate number of shadow dancers but 90% up to level 3 and very few beyond.

Shadow Dancer is generally an 'RP' choice for rogue's and is usually the pick for non-rogue's that are going for at least 19 DEX. Rogue's do not want to waste two feats (Dodge / Mobility) since either going for Point Blank Shot/Improved Rapid Shot/Many Shot or Weapon Finesse/TWF/ITWF/GTWF both costs 4 feats pre-epic. They still have many other feats they also want such ask skill focus feats, blinding strike, maybe dash (for getting some distance to be able to corner hide or use hits or whatever) etc. For Rogue's, Assassin is by far the more mechanically superior selection. While agree with your assessment overall, I would be willing to bet that most Shadow Dancers are actually non-rogue's and instead are included in Swashbuckler, Weapon Master, Deathsinger and other such builds. There are of course Rogue's that take SD, but every player I have spoken to that has one went straight R20/SD10 for the RP of SD, because if a Rogue player is concerned with the 'best' rogue build they are using Assassin. Just compare R21/A9 or R19/A8/NWN3 to any Rogue build with Shadow Dancer and you will quickly notice which ends up better.

I'll link the thread QC side and see what others in QC and Dev team think of the request to make HitS go to instant at Rogue 15 (or somewhere in that range). Again, no promises either way, thanks for continuing to post your thoughts as real play experience is always more valuable than theory crafting or the (relatively brief) testing that QC is able to do on the many various mechanics that get introduced.

[Steve]

Please consider lowering insta HITS to Rogue level 14.

[Tanlaus]

I'll link the thread QC side and see what others in QC and Dev team think of the request to make HitS go to instant at Rogue 15 (or somewhere in that range). Again, no promises either way, thanks for continuing to post your thoughts as real play experience is always more valuable than theory crafting or the (relatively brief) testing that QC is able to do on the many various mechanics that get introduced.

Hey Chad,

Thanks for the kind words. Again, I have no real dog in this fight, just wanted to give my thoughts and explain what I think would make for a better playing experience for others. So if the Dev team agrees, great. If not, no worries.

Incidentally my main is a 20 SD/10 Rogue, who I've RCR'd like 5 times just to change a feat or reallocate a few stat points to see what kind of difference it makes Partially because I like testing things so leveling doesn't bother me all that much.

[Theodore01]

I really think getting instant HITS is fine as it is. (Also had played a hips-less ro/fi into the epics once.)

Getting it earlier, like <= rogue lv16, would grant all the 'must have' rogue goodies for most builds and would allow for more power building.
No need at all to take any epic rogue levels.

Maybe we should consider granting a pure rogue additional rogue special feats at epic levels.

[chad878262]

Maybe we should consider granting a pure rogue additional rogue special feats at epic levels.

I actually suggested this in the past Theo. When HitS was granted for free to Rogue's I had recommended we continue the Rogue bonus feats every 3 levels in epics. So instead of getting bonus epic feats at R24 and R28 you'd get bonus rogue feats (which can be any epic feat you qualify for) at R22, R25, and R28. It only amounts to one epic Rogue feat, but having 8 (rather than 7) epic feats could for example help them go after something like epic concealment or do some other unique things.

Overall giving more epic feats wasn't a popular opinion.

[Tanlaus]

I really think getting instant HITS is fine as it is. (Also had played a hips-less ro/fi into the epics once.)

Getting it earlier, like <= rogue lv16, would grant all the 'must have' rogue goodies for most builds and would allow for more power building.
No need at all to take any epic rogue levels.

Maybe we should consider granting a pure rogue additional rogue special feats at epic levels.

Now that you bring it up, one thing I meant to say in my original post but forgot to is, maybe there are some power building considerations that just haven’t occurred to me.

Could you give me an example? And that’s a genuine question. I’m quite sure there’s things I’ve overlooked and I’d be curious to see what I might have missed.

[Tanlaus]

Maybe we should consider granting a pure rogue additional rogue special feats at epic levels.

I actually suggested this in the past Theo. When HitS was granted for free to Rogue's I had recommended we continue the Rogue bonus feats every 3 levels in epics. So instead of getting bonus epic feats at R24 and R28 you'd get bonus rogue feats (which can be any epic feat you qualify for) at R22, R25, and R28. It only amounts to one epic Rogue feat, but having 8 (rather than 7) epic feats could for example help them go after something like epic concealment or do some other unique things.

Overall giving more epic feats wasn't a popular opinion.

Maybe take a page from Whirling dervish and give them a bunch of skill focus feats at 30?

[c2k]

I don't think rogue needs anything in epic levels. It still gets bonus rogue feats(which you can use to take certain Epic feats as well) and sneak attack dice. Pure Rogue is not optimal, but it is completely viable.

I think HitS being instant at 15 is fine. If you have to invest 10+ levels in something, its no longer a splash; its an investment.

[Tanlaus]

I don't think rogue needs anything in epic levels. It still gets bonus rogue feats(which you can use to take certain Epic feats as well) and sneak attack dice. Pure Rogue is not optimal, but it is completely viable.

I think HitS being instant at 15 is fine. If you have to invest 10+ levels in something, its no longer a splash; its an investment.

I buy what you’re selling!

[chad878262]

I don't think rogue needs anything in epic levels. It still gets bonus rogue feats(which you can use to take certain Epic feats as well) and sneak attack dice. Pure Rogue is not optimal, but it is completely viable.

I think HitS being instant at 15 is fine. If you have to invest 10+ levels in something, its no longer a splash; its an investment.

I buy what you’re selling!

It doesn't get bonus rogue feats, those stop at 19. Rogue gets a bonus epic feat at 24 and 28, which is less than most classes that get them at 23, 26 and 29 and Barbarian (which gets 24/28 in vanilla) was granted another at 30 for staying pure. That being said, it may make more sense to give instant HitS at Rogue 17 or 18 since R16 already does grant something (bonus rogue feat). In any case that is being discussed, but no decision to report at this time.

[c2k]

Rogue is still getting sneak attack dice every 2 levels up to 29. That is pretty strong.

The reason why you don't see many pure rogues is they are a medium AB class.

[chad878262]

Rogue is still getting sneak attack dice every 2 levels up to 29. That is pretty strong.

The reason why you don't see many pure rogues is they are a medium AB class.

R21/A9 or R19/NWN3/A8 gets 16d6 sneak dice vs. pure rogue getting 15. Reason you don't see many pure rogue's is the importance of Hide in Plain Sight, and the fact that mixing in PRC's that progress sneak dice fully while giving other benefits is going to make a stronger overall character.

Hide in the Shadows, at a minimum allows for not going Assassin or Shadow Dancer and instead doing a build that might better fit certain RP like R25/Guild Thief 5 or other similar options. It is not stronger than what can and is already done, but it's 'good enough'.

Medium BAB is fine for pure rogue's because EW was changed so it doesn't always apply the malus to dodge AC (and thus attacking from stealth/feint doesn't nullify the malus to AC). Between than and ability to take away dodge/dex AC they can hit anything a high BAB build can hit quite easily.

[c2k]

R21/A9 or R19/NWN3/A8 gets 16d6 sneak dice vs. pure rogue getting 15. Reason you don't see many pure rogue's is the importance of Hide in Plain Sight, and the fact that mixing in PRC's that progress sneak dice fully while giving other benefits is going to make a stronger overall character.

Pure Rogue can get more though, because they can take Improved Sneak attack, where as those others can't because NWN2's engine doesn't recognize sneak dice stacking. Those 2 bonus feats for going pure can become +2d6 sneak dice.

Hide in the Shadows, at a minimum allows for not going Assassin or Shadow Dancer and instead doing a build that might better fit certain RP like R25/Guild Thief 5 or other similar options. It is not stronger than what can and is already done, but it's 'good enough'.

And that is fine. I think its ok to the point where it being instant at level 15, I don't see it more powerful than anything else this server offers. A player could have easily went R5/SD1 and get awesome stealth at level 6. But investing 15 levels in a class, that is defining the build and it seems fair to give it at that point. What are they going to go Assassin 8 at that point? I would be pointless, because assassin is a terrible splash and you need to drop the levels in it to get that power.

Medium BAB is fine for pure rogue's because EW was changed so it doesn't always apply the malus to dodge AC (and thus attacking from stealth/feint doesn't nullify the malus to AC). Between than and ability to take away dodge/dex AC they can hit anything a high BAB build can hit quite easily.

In a non-optimal mindset, you are correct. Medium BAB does deal with most issues on the server. But the optimized user knows better. High BAB means more attacks you can give up to your styles and higher % of your first X attacks hitting a target. It is a big deal, because when you go after the big fish on this server, time is not on your side, because every round you expend chips away at your defenses. You always want your first attack to hit, you want your second attack to be reliable, and trusty third strike always helps.

In certain situations, Pure Rogue does out damage pure fighter, but pure fighter becomes more reliable damage because they have higher BAB and does not need those situations.

[chad878262]

In a non-optimal mindset, you are correct. Medium BAB does deal with most issues on the server. But the optimized user knows better. High BAB means more attacks you can give up to your styles and higher % of your first X attacks hitting a target. It is a big deal, because when you go after the big fish on this server, time is not on your side, because every round you expend chips away at your defenses. You always want your first attack to hit, you want your second attack to be reliable, and trusty third strike always helps.

In certain situations, Pure Rogue does out damage pure fighter, but pure fighter becomes more reliable damage because they have higher BAB and does not need those situations.

This is just not accurate c2k. I appreciate your considerations and arguments, but on BG they aren't the case. Epic Precision sneak attack based character (which by default is fully medium BAB progression, save possibly 3 levels of Bodyguard) has more reliable damage than any high BAB fighter build (not just fighter). 4-6 sneak attacks doing between 14-18d6 sneak dice (49-63 damage per attack, usually somewhere around ~210-250 average sneak damage in the first flurry out of stealth) are possibly the most reliable high damage builds on the server. Yes Weapon Master can do far more, but has no 'epic precision for crits'. Frenzied Berserker can also hit very high DPR without Weapon Master and without issues for crit immunes, but it is no more reliable than what a well built sneak attack character will do in the first flurry (and killing epic caster mobs in that first flurry is a very big deal for any build with low fort and/or will saves). As someone who has played a LOT of different sneak attack based builds (some rogue heavy, others with just R10 for crippling strike/epic precision, some with sneak dice from other sources) I can say that when attacking out of stealth your 4-6 attacks in the first flurry will hit quite reliably, even with an attack bonus of ~34.

In any case, my point stands which I think you agree with. That being HitS coming a bit earlier isn't a concern mainly because going for that instead of either SD or Assassin is by default a 'lesser' build choice that simply allows for an RP concept to at least be viable, if not optimized (which should be the goal anyway).