Fighter vs. Rogue DPS Curves

[Steve]

I don't want to derail the thread, so we can agree to disagree on Fighter vs. Rogue DPS curves.

Please continue!!!

Let’s say full rogue and high dmg fighter have near equal AC for arguments sake.

If a full Rogue is doing 16d6 x 4 apr (let’s say guaranteed out of stealth), that’s an average of 48 x 4 = 192 dmg per round. Because a pure Rogue can’t HiPS, they either die the next round, or have to run off and HiTS, wasting what...3 rounds before being able to stealth strike again?

A fighter/wm/fb with a x3 crit weapon and TH fighting is going to have around 55 dmg per hit x 4 per round = 220 dmg. If the fighter crits...well, you see the outcome there.

If the pure rogue needs 4-5 rounds to achieve 2 stealth attacks to kill a mob above 400 HP, the f/wm/fb would need 2.

Circumstances always vary, I know, but....

[chad878262]

If a full Rogue is doing 16d6 x 4 apr (let’s say guaranteed out of stealth), that’s an average of 48 x 4 = 192 dmg per round. Because a pure Rogue can’t HiPS, they either die the next round, or have to run off and HiTS, wasting what...3 rounds before being able to stealth strike again?

A fighter/wm/fb with a x3 crit weapon and TH fighting is going to have around 55 dmg per hit x 4 per round = 220 dmg. If the fighter crits...well, you see the outcome there.

16x3.5x4 = ~224 + any other bonuses (weapon dice, str modifier, energy damage, whatever), not 192.

Why can the Fighter take WM/FB but the rogue must be pure? Even if this is the premise, a good rogue will engage near somewhere HitS will work and draw enemies to them.

And to be fair I stated in the other thread that WM would do more damage, but not more consistent damage because the sneak attack based character with epic precision can damage crit immune. On top of this HitS offers protection that the Weapon Master doesn't have since both have a glaring weakness (saving throws). Of course this assumes the Weapon Master build isn't doing Shadow Dancer cheese.

If the pure rogue needs 4-5 rounds to achieve 2 stealth attacks to kill a mob above 400 HP, the f/wm/fb would need 2.

Circumstances always vary, I know, but....

My last high damage sneak build I was playing ~late 2016 or early 2017 through late 2018/early 2019 did ~245 sneak damage out of HiPS and literally every epic caster mob died in the first flurry 100% of the time. Good roles could kill epic melee mobs and even low roles took them to near death, but the key (for me) is being able to take out casters before they have a chance to retaliate. Add this to some speed boosts from feats/prc's and it is a permanent moving blade barrier of destruction.

[Bobthehero]

Why can the Fighter take WM/FB but the rogue must be pure? Even if this is the premise, a good rogue will engage near somewhere HitS will work and draw enemies to them.

This, either compare pure fighter vs pure rogue, or let the rogue have assassin/SD levels and HiPS.

[Blackman D]

well not to nick pick but a full rogue who cant hips is going to have feint (or otherwise be utterly retarded not to) so they can continue to sneak attack without hips

even all my melee rogues with hips have feint, no need to hips if they are blind and will just die in a round or two

not sure what got this started since i dont go thru every thread but if you are suggesting rogue dps is spotty and dependent on hips then thats simply not true, yes a fighter is going to have better sustained dps because with a rogue once you hit a high SA die count, you dps becomes highly unreliable anyway

take my rogue assassin who has 21d6 SA and uses darts and shurikens because the weapon she uses is irrelevant (and shes a ninja >.>)

the RNG rolls an average high so the average of a d6 is 4, mathematical average 3, so the average damage range you will see is 63 - 84 out of a max of 126; so she hurts quite a bit but excepting to see high numbers every time is a laugh because her average damage spread is huge

basically having too many damage die is not always a good thing, yea it helps with having a higher minimum damage you will do but if you are taking overall damage over a long period compared to a class like fighter that tends to have a higher base damage with few actual die then yea fighter dps is overall better

take my fighter/wm/fb that is a halberd user so has 17-20 x4 with a d10 weapon, his max non crit damage is like 54 so his crits get over 200 with overwhelming crit, but the only actually damage dies he has is the halberd damage and overwhelming crit, so his base damage spread is literally 1-10, so 44-54 max spread or 49-50 average which is a hell of a lot smaller than the 21 pt spread my assassin has

so lets say both do 4 hits per round and my fighter never crits, my assassin will have better damage output even at 63 x4 than my fighter at 50 x4; but if my fighter crits (and has crit up to 3 times in a row multiple times) we are now talking 800 damage output from my fighter while SA damages -are- crits so my assassin stays in that 63-84 x4 range regardless

so yea, dps wise it is highly situational as to which one is going to be better

[Tanlaus]

My own admittedly anecdotal experience is that the balance is somewhat baked in. When allowed to sneak attack the rogue is melee DPS king. When not, not.

Part of what makes gameplay interesting both soloing or in a group is setting up your encounters so that, more often than not (things do go wrong no matter how well planned) that is the case.

[Steve]

not sure what got this started since i dont go thru every thread but...

I just like to see mathletes get into it!

the RNG rolls an average high so the average of a d6 is 4...

If this is true, I now have to change all the readouts for all my builds on nwn2db! Aargh!

So pure rogue is ~224, while a pure fighter 45 avg. x 3 apr = 135, or 35 avg x 4 apr = 140, per round. If a rogue needs 3 rounds for stealth attack, HiTS, stealth attack for 448 dmg, the pure fighter is making 420 dmg in 3 rounds.

In a case where the mob is crit/sneak immune, the pure fighter will win as the pure rogues dmg goes down by half (224 in 3 rounds) and the fighters dmg is base damage. If the mob is not crit/sneak immune, then likely the fighter will land some crits, let's be fair and say 1 out of 4 apr, making the dmg 630 in 3 rounds, which means the fighter also wins!

Am I right or wrong?!?

[chad878262]

well if you want to be fair the rogue is going to have expose weakness tick as well as more hits in round 3 vs. round 1. the rogue is also going to have additional attacks (non-sneak damage attacks) that do additional damage. then there are things to consider like (as BMD mentions) feint, blinding strike or on-hit effects of weapons that also change the damage numbers.

If you want to turn it in to a mathlete olympics at least factor in all the stuff, not just 'but crits!'...

[Steve]

Well, I'm still doubting a pure rogue would out-damage a pure fighter even if we allowed for full gear, full Feats, etc. on both builds.

Maybe the curve is such that in 2 rounds, or 5 rounds or 7 rounds, the fighter or rogue swings up while the other swings down, but then the curve flips for round 3, round 6 or round 8.

Probably in the end, the rogue will win because they'd also be using UMD!!!

[Blackman D]

my fighter has UMD, whats your point?

there is nothing worth using that you cant get on a wand when it comes to extra damage; and of course a rogue is not going to out damage a fighter, rogues always crit so there is never a spike in their damage output

[zhazz]

Just some quick math here.

For ease of math there will be a few assumptions made.

1. Both the Rogue and the Fighter have an AC of 40
2. Neither the Rogue nor the Fighter will invest into Constitution beyond 10
3. Neither will they invest in the Toughness feat, or use Hit Point increasing items
4. No magical items considered aside from the weapons
5. Standard +4 weapons are assumed
6. The Rogue has Epic Dodge
7. Both build for maximum damage
8. Both stay pure, meaning 30 levels in only their respective base classes
9. All attacks hit, either due to Stealth (Rogue) or high AB (Fighter)
10. The Rogue gets 4 attacks due to Stealthed flurry (rest won't hit due to low AB)
11. The Fighter gets 4 attacks a full round, either from going first, or surviving the Stealthed flurry
12. Critical hits are not taken into account
13. UMD is not taken into account

Fighter
Race: Any with +2 Strength
Final Strength: 34 ----- 20 base + 14 increases
Hit Points: 300
Weapon: Greatsword (2d6)
Attacks per Round: 4 ----- 6 base - 2 from NH
Noteable Feats: Improved Power Attack, Northlander Hewing (NH), Epic Focus, Epic Specialization, Weapon Mastery, Weapon Supremacy, Epic Prowess

Total Damage: 56 to 66 ----- 2d6 + 4 EB + 18 (Str) + 8 (Mastery, Specialization) + 12 IPA + 12 NH

Due to Epic Dodge 1 of the 4 attacks does no damage.
Defensive Roll is ignored since it requires a natural 20 to succeed on a Reflex save vs a minimum DC of 56.

Therefore the damage per round will be:
183 ----- 3 x 56 to 66 = 3 x 61 average

Rogue
Race: Any with +2 Dexterity
Final Strength: 14
Hit Points: 180
Weapon: Dagger (1d4)
Noteable Feats: Epic Dodge, Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Sneak Attack +5d6

Total Sneak Attack: 20d6 ----- 15d6 base + 5d6 epic

Total Damage: 27 to 130 ----- 1d4 + 4 EB + 2 (Str) + 20d6 (SA)

The Fighter has no special abilities to mitigate hits or damage.

Therefore the damage per round will be:
308 ----- 4 x 27 to 130 = 4 x 78 average

Summary
If the Rogue gets the jump on the Fighter the Rogue will win by dealing 308 damage to a 300 Hit Point target.

If the Fighter gets the jump on the Rogue the Fighter will win by dealing 183 damage to a 180 Hit Point target.

The Fighter has more reliable damage, both in damage range, and delivery. 56 to 66 vs 27 to 130. No Stealth vs Stealth.
Thus low damage rolls for the Rogue is more likely to result in the Fighter surviving the first round than the other way around.

Conclusion
All things being equal, and utilizing the law of averages, the Rogue is the winner.

But only by a narrow margin due to the high variance in Sneak Attack output.

Still the winner though.

Final thoughts
When taking critical hits into consideration the Fighter benefits more than the Rogue due to the above-mentioned reliability of damage rolls, and thus the balance shifts more towards the Fighter.

When taking higher Constiution, the Toughness feat, and Hit Point increases into consideration the balance shifts towards the Rogue, due to their higher damage potential still being able to Stealth flurry a target with up to 520 Hit Points (4 x 130).

For a theoretical experiment, however, the law of averages is better, and thus I stand by the semi-conclusion above.

[Blackman D]

well not that anyone was really talking fighter vs rogue in the pvp sense, but pvp is always iffy because skill is a wildcard that trumps power and one that will always favor a rogue vs a blind opponent; and a rogue vs a spotter pretty much already lost unless they are a noob and only put ranks into listen like so many do for whatever reason

[Tanlaus]

well not that anyone was really talking fighter vs rogue in the pvp sense, but pvp is always iffy because skill is a wildcard that trumps power and one that will always favor a rogue vs a blind opponent; and a rogue vs a spotter pretty much already lost unless they are a noob and only put ranks into listen like so many do for whatever reason

Someone told me you could target off a successful listen check. Not true? I always favor spot so I have no idea.

[c2k]

Regarding PvP, there are answers to a rogue you can't see. Fire Bombs, Whirlwind attack, etc. Also, you have to take critical hits into account, because if you ever seen the tournaments on this server, that is how most bouts end.

Now.. Pure Fighter vs. Pure Rogue. Rogue does have the burst for the first two attacks, and then just falls off. Fighter consistently outputs the same amount of damage. In order for a rogue to compete with that, they have to give up an attack or lose all of their attacks to find a way back into stealth(even with HiPS because its technically a re-engage). Rogue's damage output is reliant on sneak attack; I mean, this is the reason why HiPS is so coveted and a part of every Rogue build. You lose an attack when you feint, and that does shake up the DPS model, especially when your feint fails(and some of the higher level mobs do have the spot to cause this to happen).

The BAB. High BAB means you get more attacks and more of your attacks per round will hit. At level 30, a Fighter has 6 attacks, with 3 that are high %, 1 that is about 50%, and 2 that will likely miss. Rogue at Level 30, has 5 attacks with 2 that are high %, 1 that is 50%, and 2 duds. Now, you can say "The rogue will have Perfect 2 weapon", "the rogue will have Expose weakness", etc. Fighter is going to have a lot feats too and its going to reliably hit its damage more than a pure rogue will.

In a situation where the rogue has a partner, I will agree rogue DPS can be better than fighter DPS, because unless the mob is cheeky, the rogue will reliably be able to get its damage off. Rogues are one of the best +1s in the game.

[zhazz]

well not that anyone was really talking fighter vs rogue in the pvp sense, but pvp is always iffy because skill is a wildcard that trumps power and one that will always favor a rogue vs a blind opponent; and a rogue vs a spotter pretty much already lost unless they are a noob and only put ranks into listen like so many do for whatever reason

I misread the original post then

Still. The numbers can be used to extrapulate non-PvP results.

Simply add the one attack back in for the Fighter that was excluded due to Epic Dodge. That's another 61 damage per round, totalling 244.

For burst it still falls short of short of the 308 done by the Rogue.

For sustained DPS the Fighter gets 2 additional rounds of full damage, while the Rogue can only to regular attacks at 7 to 10 damage each, averaging 8.5.

Over 3 rounds, with 4 attacks hitting for both those numbers come to:
3 x 4 x 61 = 732 for the Fighter
1 x 4 x 78 + 2 x 4 x 8.5 = 376 for the Rogue

Thus making the Fighter the obvious winner by a large margin.

Even allowing the Rogue to hit 4 attacks per round outside of stealth, while waiting for HIITS to come off cooldown is a stretch due to their terrible AB, which will be somewhere around 35. The first attack with average a roll of 45 on a D20, with the next three averaging 40, 35, and 30. Thus putting half below the 40 AC target value.


So there you have it.

In PvP the Rogue should be the winner.
In PvE there is no contest at all and the Fighter is the winner.