Why is Warsling Sniper 6 level PRC?

[blacksoft]

It didnt bother me at first that Warsling Sniper is 6 classes rather than 5, but once I started noticing how many levels PRCs have, I realized that this is unusual.

Generally, PRC classes are 10 or 5 levels.

Other race specific classes for reference: (may have missed some)

Arcane Archer - 10
Dwarven Defender - 10
Dwarven Battlerager - 5
Breach Gnome - 5
Bladesinger - 10
Olin Gisir - 10
Orc War Drummer - 5
Thayan Knight - 5

Other ranged specific PRC classes:

Elemental Archer - 5
Order of the Bow - 10

Only PRC class that I noticed that is not 5 or 10 is the Fist of the Forest, which to my understanding based on Kaedrin's comments, the PRC is really meant to be a splash for monk to help support some of monks "limitations" and or provide other avenues for building the monk class. (FOTF is only 3 levels so makes sense that is more of a splash class than anything else)

In fact, after looking at the D&D source for Warsling Sniper it makes more sense why its 6 levels - every odd level it gets sneak attack die. Every even level it gets the Warsling Sniper class feats. However, once Warsling Sniper was moved to BGTSCC, it didnt retain the SA feats - thus there is no reason to actually have this class at 6 levels in BGTSCC.

D&D version (before BGTSCC implementation)

Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1st +1 +0 +2 +0 Warsling sneak attack +1d6
2nd +2 +0 +3 +0 Sniper's vision
3rd +3 +1 +3 +1 Warsling sneak attack +2d6
4th +4 +1 +4 +1 Improved Critical (halfling warsling)
5th +5 +1 +4 +1 Warsling sneak attack +3d6
6th +6 +2 +5 +2 Improved ricochet

What do you think?? Based on the precedent that all BGTSCC PRCs are either 5 or 10, should Warslinger be 5 levels instead?

(Now any suggestion of what placement the feats will be if it is 5 levels can be more subjective, but since I happen to be bringing up this suggestion, I think a full analysis of what it could look like is valid in terms of showing completeness - I.E not that I think it cant cant have a different permutation)

The 5 levels, for example, could look like this:

1) Sniper's vision I
2) Ricochet Shot
3) Improved crit-slings
4) Sniper's vision II
5) Improved Ricochet

[Blackman D]

...we could delete the last level if you really want... but why?

just think of it as if its like a 10 level prc with nothing good the last 4 levels

[blacksoft]

...we could delete the last level if you really want... but why?

just think of it as if its like a 10 level prc with nothing good the last 4 levels

First of all, thanks for replying.

I was actually wondering whether I was going to get this response - as in, so maybe we should delete the last level (writing off my arguments with a joke), which incidentally is the reason for taking the class. As well as the suggestion that look at it as 4 levels less of a full 10 level PRC.

Well, I am not sure if you are actually looking for a counter argument or not due to the fact I thought I reasoned out my argument pretty well. (Or maybe I didnt)

I will respond to your level 10 assessment first:
The class does not have enough going for it to argue that it should have 10 levels and was truncated to 6 levels instead. If you compare it to AA for example, its no contest.

As far as being satisfied that it is 6 classes and not 5 without improved ricochet and Sniper's vision II, I could still point to all the other PRCs and ask what makes this class so different that it is 6? I have shown above that it only had 6 levels due to it having sneak attack progression, which BGTSCC did not retain. Thus, I still do not see a reason it should maintain its 6 level class other than the fact of "because, and thus it is so" (Which obviously, if that is DM decision, its completely their prerogative to say so)


(Also, I have no clue as to whether I am sounding argumentative or not. I surely hope not and am only trying to understand. Thanks.)

[Blackman D]

well it can just as easily be made 10 levels, look at archmage, its only suppose to be 5 levels but insert 5 pointless filler levels and bam, 10 levels

honestly tho i think its your mind messin with you, there is nothing worth with only 6 levels, the alternatives will just piss people off because something is gonna get removed or pointless levels are gonna get added

[c2k]

BMD is right, you don't want this class to have 4 more levels. You get its full power in 6. They added levels to archmage because 5 straight levels of High Arcana buffs would be very convenient for some sick caster builds.

[blacksoft]

Ah, ok. I have been able to use it as is. So guess there isn't much more to say then. And I most definitely do not want it to be 10 levels or neutered from how it is now. I'll step away from rocking this boat.

[blacksoft]

well it can just as easily be made 10 levels, look at archmage, its only suppose to be 5 levels but insert 5 pointless filler levels and bam, 10 levels

I just wanted to respond specifically to the archmage mention.

True that you doubled the class levels, but caster spellcasting levels are unaffected. Casters care primary about caster levels and spell progression and the PRC abilities are adds to that. Other classes rely intimately on prc abilities to be effective. Anyway that's my two cents.

EDIT :

Having it at 6 levels, takes away flexibility of building it into other build spreads such as the popular 12x/10x/5x/3x split that many fighters and other classes use.

(Prays "not rocking the boat")

[Theodore01]

Just take a look what and how many feats any other 5 level PRCs gets and compare that to the 6 levels of warslinger and his 4 feats gained....

There is not a single 5 level PRC that gains only 4 feats

Elemental archer: 7feats
1 Path of Elements, Elemental Shot+1
2 Accurate Shot +1
3 Elemental Shield (5 minute cooldown)
4 Accurate Shot +2
5 Elemental Shield (2m:30s cooldown), Elemental Storm (5 minute cooldown), Elemental Shot+2

Guild_Thief: 9
1 Sneak Attack +1d6, Doublespeak
2 Bonus feat, Uncanny Dodge
3 Sneak Attack +2d6, Reputation
4 Bonus feat
5 Sneak Attack +3d6, Improved Uncanny Dodge

Thief_Acrobat: 5
1 Agile Fighting
2 Improved Knockdown
3 Springboard
4 Improved Evasion
5 Kip Up

Tempest: 7
1 Tempest Defense (+1 AC)
2 Tempest Defense (+1 AC, +1 AB)
3 Tempest Defense (+1 AC, +1 AB), Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
4 Tempest Defense (+2 AC, +1 AB)
5 Tempest Defense (+2 AC, +2 AB), Whirlwind Attack, Tempest Whirlwind

Master of Disguises: 6
1 Expert Disguiser
2
3 Second Impression , +1d6 Sneak Attack
4 Slippery Mind
5 Disguise Self (at will), +1d6 Sneak Attack

Harper_Scout: 8+1
1 Spellcasting, Harper's Knowledge
2 1st Favored Enemy, Deneir's Eye, Skill Focus
3 Tymora's Smile
4 Lliira's Heart, 2nd Favored Enemy
5 Azuth's Touch

Divine_Seeker: 12
1 Sacred Stealth (1/day), Skill Focus (Disable Device), Skill Focus (Search)
2 Sacred Defense +1, Sneak Attack 1d6
3 Sacred Stealth (2/day), Trapfinding, Trapsense +1
4 Sacred Defense +2, Divine Perserverance
5 Sacred Stealth (3/day), Sneak Attack 2d6, Trapsense +2

Bodyguard: 5
1 Protective Aura I
2 Guarding the Lord x3
3 Frantic Reactions
4 Protective aura II
5 All-Out Assault x1

Breach_Gnome: 5
1: Seal the breach (AC)
2: Uncanny Dodge
3: Bonus Feat
4: Seal the breach (Dexterity)
5: Seal the breach (AB)

Dissonant Chord: 6
1 Bardic Music, Improved Counterspell, Spellcasting Progression
2
3 Break Concentration
4 Skill Focus (Perform)
5 Anti-Magic Melody

Harper Mage: 7
1 Spellcasting Progression, Harper's Knowledge
2 Arcane theory, Oghma's insight
3 Extend Spell
4 Mystra's Boon
5 Specialist

Harper Priest: 7
1 Spellcasting Progression, Blessing, Harper's Knowledge
2 Blessing
3 Blessing
4 Greater Blessing
5 Greater Blessing

Harper_Scout: 8
1 Spellcasting, Harper's Knowledge
2 1st Favored Enemy, Deneir's Eye, Skill Focus
3 Tymora's Smile
4 Lliira's Heart, 2nd Favored Enemy
5 Azuth's Touch

Invisible Blade: 5
1 Unfettered Defense, Bleeding Wound 2/round
2 -
3 Bleeding Wound 4/round
4 -
5 Feint Mastery, Bleeding Wound 6/round

Master_Alchemist: 6
1: Spellcasting Progression, Master Brewer, Alchemist Brew
2: Advanced Brewing
3: Alchemical Fire Mastery
4:
5: Unrivalled Brewer

Thayan Knight: 7
1 Horrors of Thay
2 Zulkir's Defender, Zulkir's Favor
3 Feared Fighter
4 Feared Fighter
5 Zulkir's Champion, Terrifying Champion

Thaumaturge: 5
1: Spellcasting Progression
2: Augment Summoning
3: Extended Summoning
4: Contingent Summoning
5: Planar Cohort