Make Ranger HiPS normal HiPS

[ARHicks00]

Cavestalker was introduced so that Rangers could use their abilities in the Underdark. And, you only need to take a 3 level investment for it to apply.

Except to be a candidate you need dark vision. Last I check, humans, halfling, and I think Aasimar do not have that abilities. I think Gensais too.

[Steve]

The real issues here are:

- the difference between Ranger 30 vs. Ranger 27/Cavestalker 3. It costs a Ranger only some Skill points to unlock CS. The difference is 1 Bonus Feat and either another Bonus or a Favored Enemy.

- that with normal HiPS, a UD Ranger can HiPS in any exterior/interior, outdoor/indoor location...which shouldn’t be in their skill set since Ranger HiPS is outdoor/wilderness specific.

One could opt to make Underdark Affinity Feat a normal Feat with still a Track and Survival Skills prereq. I personally don’t think it should be free as it seems more a learned ability (Feat) than an innate one if you’re toon is “born” in the UD.

This would also mean Surfaces could learn it as well!!!

[ARHicks00]

ill rephrase it

ranger abilities work in the environment in which they are typically found, which is the surface outdoor natural areas - even on the surface if a ranger goes underground their hips does not work, they are limited to fields, forests, etc

cavestalker... caves... aka underground places

As someone playing a ranger (and loving it), Rangers are like Bards and even have the same motto, which is "Can do everything, but sucks at everything." This class was created for outside campaigns only, but servers have majority indoor dungeons. I mean anything the Ranger can do, a bard and rogue can do better. (And fighter and druid)

Rangers get added damage vs. Favored enemy, but you can only pick 7 favored enemies in server that has whole spectrum of enemies. You can do 7 + 3d8 by epic levels against favored enemies. Rangers are horrible at tank and spank due to low AC as well as health, their dual wielding is lack luster compared to a rogue, and damage output is horrible unless going up against their favorite enemy. Unlike the paladin, their spells are geared towards their pets that also suck. (Compared to a druid or mage with a buffed summon) You are better off ignoring your pet and buffing yourself.

Rangers were created to be feat dependent and those same feats are dependent on an outdoor environment. So any hindrance to their abilities makes them either a liability or lackluster. Now rangers ARE good with bows, but a rogue with epic precision can do far more damage to non-critical characters whereas rangers do not have an answer when they run into such enemies.

I am in agreement that HIPS should be normalize rather than outside usage only. I know rangers were created for outside gameplay, but that is just me. That and I would give ranger full animal companion levels.

[Theodore01]

As someone playing a ranger (and loving it), Rangers like Bards and even have the same motto, which is "Can do everything, but sucks at everything."

good one

[ARHicks00]

As someone playing a ranger (and loving it), Rangers like Bards and even have the same motto, which is "Can do everything, but sucks at everything."

good one

I got that one from GameFAQs PnP forums when about 14 or 16 years ago they were going to revamp the bard, someone had quoted that. I'm not saying Rangers suck, but their lack of specialization, even when effort is put into it, leave much to be desired. Mind you a melee ranger at level 30 using a longsword can do 23/46 to 41/82 damage with 11 bonus strength, +4 enchantment, and +7 damage to a favored enemy, but that's highly situational.

[c2k]

Cavestalker was introduced so that Rangers could use their abilities in the Underdark. And, you only need to take a 3 level investment for it to apply.

Except bbn to be a candidate you need dark vision. Last I check, humans, halfling, and I think Aasimar do not have that abilities. I think Gensais too.

While its a moot argument regarding HiPS, anyone can get Darkvision with SD Level 2. There mighjt be some other classes two, but I forget them off-hand.

[Thaelis]

As someone playing a ranger (and loving it), Rangers like Bards and even have the same motto, which is "Can do everything, but sucks at everything." This class was created for outside campaigns only, but servers have majority indoor dungeons. Anything Ranger can do, a bard and rogue can do better. (And fighter and druid)

Gotta agree with everything this guy says ><

Against my favored enemy I am slightly more powerful than other archers, against everything else I'm a much worse archer :/

I think the problem is just that Rangers weren't a very powerful class in 3.5E. Don't get me wrong, they were always fun, just not powerful. Pathfinder made them more on-par with the other classes, +2hp/level, fixed caster level (which we seem to already have on BG, yay!) as well as a vast array of other abilities.

I'm really against HiPS indoors unless it can be done properly, in natural areas only. I will die a little inside when I see a Ranger HiPS inside an Inn/Castle/Shop etc.

[Tanlaus]

I think rangers are a lot stronger than what people here give them credit for.

Not only do they have stealth but also stealth detection. Most of the complaints about HiPS disappear when facing a Ranger who you can’t sneak up on. It’s also great in PVE in areas like the drider caves or cloudpeaks where monsters can attack from stealth.

They are full BAB with either all the archery feats or all the TWF feats. Being strength based and having PTWF is quite powerful. A full ranger gets a lot of FE bonuses. Seems to be better at killing more things than not.

The spells are also great. With full caster level they are difficult to dispel and save a lot of gear slots. What I’d give to cast mass camo and halo of sand myself.

Tracking is great for PVE and PVP situationally.

The ranger I primarily run with can solo the UD pit fiend without breaking a sweat. I’d never call him gimpy.

All of that aside I do think UD players should have the option of being able to use their full ranger abilities without having to take a PRC if they don’t want to.

[ARHicks00]

I think rangers are a lot stronger than what people here give them credit for.

Not only do they have stealth but also stealth detection. Most of the complaints about HiPS disappear when facing a Ranger who you can’t sneak up on. It’s also great in PVE in areas like the drider caves or cloudpeaks where monsters can attack from stealth.

They are full BAB with either all the archery feats or all the TWF feats. Being strength based and having PTWF is quite powerful. A full ranger gets a lot of FE bonuses. Seems to be better at killing more things than not.

The spells are also great. With full caster level they are difficult to dispel and save a lot of gear slots. What I’d give to cast mass camo and halo of sand myself.

Tracking is great for PVE and PVP situationally.

The ranger I primarily run with can solo the UD pit fiend without breaking a sweat. I’d never call him gimpy.

All of that aside I do think UD players should have the option of being able to use their full ranger abilities without having to take a PRC if they don’t want to.

No one is saying the ranger is bad. What I am saying, the Ranger like the bard don't specialize in anything. The fact they have multiple combat stylized says a lot. There is a such thing as being overly hybrid. A bard is a rogue/sorcerer/cleric and ranger is a rogue/fighter/druid. The druid is also a hybrid, but difference is you can dump everything into Wisdom and you would be able fulfill all rules thanks to Spell DC, Intuitive Attack, and Zen Archery being connect to that one attribute. So they can be a tank, healer, nuke, melee dps, and sniper using one attribute. Three important skills are tired to this attribute too. No other class except the monk can do this.

Rangers cannot do this. They have to choose to be melee dps or sniping. They can only use 2 attributes to do dps and those two attributes have low synergy compared to Wisdom. Strength wise they are situational glass cannons if they focus dps or paper tanks if they try to sword and board using shield bash.

Yes, they have stealth detection, but their spot and listen are bad compared to Bards, Druids, and Monks. Yes they get stealth, but invisible potions/spells require no checks. They can do 200ish damage using One-Shot, but that is situational. Out doors and against a favored enemy, Rangers are a beast. Indoors (which 75% of quests take place and dungeons are designed in) and against an non-factor enemy, the Ranger is crap. The fact, we are encouraging a Ranger player to take up a prestigious class to get a certain ability they lack drives that further home.

[Thaelis]

I think rangers are a lot stronger than what people here give them credit for.

Not only do they have stealth but also stealth detection. Most of the complaints about HiPS disappear when facing a Ranger who you can’t sneak up on. It’s also great in PVE in areas like the drider caves or cloudpeaks where monsters can attack from stealth.

Um...huh?! Rangers have no better stealth detection than Rogues. Even if my Spot/Listen got a +15 buff each I'd still have a 0% chance of spotting myself.

Unless you are talking about Wisdom-based Ranger, in which case their Stealth would suck, which is hardly compensated by the ability to spot.

Everything else you said is spot on though

[Tanlaus]

I think rangers are a lot stronger than what people here give them credit for.

Not only do they have stealth but also stealth detection. Most of the complaints about HiPS disappear when facing a Ranger who you can’t sneak up on. It’s also great in PVE in areas like the drider caves or cloudpeaks where monsters can attack from stealth.

Um...huh?! Rangers have no better stealth detection than Rogues. Even if my Spot/Listen got a +15 buff each I'd still have a 0% chance of spotting myself.

Unless you are talking about Wisdom-based Ranger, in which case their Stealth would suck, which is hardly compensated by the ability to spot.

Everything else you said is spot on though

Listen + stalker gear + amplify if you’ve got the umd or potions of clarity if not, and you’ll catch a lot of stealthers.

Or, even if you go spot, if you gear up for it and use a clarity potion you can get just over 80 iirc. And since hide is soft capped at 100, you can detect stealthers. My rogue does this specifically for meetings he doesn’t want people spying on.

Anyway my point isn’t that rangers are the ultimate spotters (though they usually are better than rogues due to needing a some wisdom for spells) but that they can do it... something lots of classic heavy hitting classes cannot.

I know there seems to be a stigma about the whole ‘master of nine’ thing but having a lot of tools in the tool box often ends up being a lot more useful than being really really good at whacking things with a pointy stick.

Which again, not to derail the thread, is odd when some of those tools aren’t available to UD players without a kludgely work around.

[ARHicks00]

I think the overall point is, it's bad for a Ranger to have to cross-class for something as simple as HIPS, which is stupid and not needed. We have several post of arguments that are avoiding the fact that having to cross-class with anything to give them an ability they already have, but comes with special condition is stupid. Again, it plays into the anti-power build narrative on this server. I will say this, if it's too hard to play UD Ranger than it's better to play a surface side one.

[Blackman D]

well again, rangers were designed around the surface and in the case of drow/UD i think they made cavestalker (WoC or whoever) to be added to ranger so drow can play that class

it was brought up before but it probably would be better if it was a base class and not a PrC, i would still leave the two as they are or there would be no point in being two different versions

[Rooftops]

It would be neat if at level 17 a ranger could choose between:

Outdoor Hips: Everything stays as usual.

Or...

Underground Hips: You lose the ability to run in stealth but gain normal hips. This signifies the need to slow down in the dark twisting caverns below.

It would appeal to dwarven characters as well as deep gnomes and drow.

[Thaelis]

It would be neat if at level 17 a ranger could choose between:

Outdoor Hips: Everything stays as usual.

Or...

Underground Hips: You lose the ability to run in stealth but gain normal hips. This signifies the need to slow down in the dark twisting caverns below.

It would appeal to dwarven characters as well as deep gnomes and drow.

That's actually a great idea

Or... Choose between:

Outdoor-only HiPS

Underground-only HiPS (like Cavestalker)

And perhaps have the ability to take the one you didn't choose as a Feat later, for those Rangers who have spent a lot of time in both environments and want to acclimate.
(you'd have to really want it, since Rangers don't exactly have Feats to throw away)