Make Ranger HiPS normal HiPS

[Grendunor]

Honestly the Cavestalker PRC exists for UD rangers to take. It's a fantastic little niche PRC that you can do some very silly things with if you get creative and think about what types of characters would take it.

Is it a bit silly that UD rangers don't count as in outdoor environments? Little bit but as of now there is a solution to the problem with Cave stalker. And hey look at it this way, UD rangers at least have access to one of the best things on the server. 41SR just for choosing Drow or Deep Gnome it's all about the small trade offs in the situations in which you create your character.

Failing that there is always the option of taking Assassin 8/9 which as far as Drow go would not be an RP stretch given their culture. Hell you have a fantastic character concept there in playing a Tracker-fixer for the Wizard schools of Sshamath (Ssh! Math? I forget the name) or one of the other many factions in the cities.

I think there is a lot more fun to be had going with the grain of the environment than lamenting the fact that the location requires a different kind of thought. You don't go to a foreign country and get frothing mad that the wall plugs don't fit your native configuration. You go out and pick up an adapter, maybe two .

[Tanlaus]

Honestly the Cavestalker PRC exists for UD rangers to take. It's a fantastic little niche PRC that you can do some very silly things with if you get creative and think about what types of characters would take it.

Is it a bit silly that UD rangers don't count as in outdoor environments? Little bit but as of now there is a solution to the problem with Cave stalker. And hey look at it this way, UD rangers at least have access to one of the best things on the server. 41SR just for choosing Drow or Deep Gnome it's all about the small trade offs in the situations in which you create your character.

Failing that there is always the option of taking Assassin 8/9 which as far as Drow go would not be an RP stretch given their culture. Hell you have a fantastic character concept there in playing a Tracker-fixer for the Wizard schools of Sshamath (Ssh! Math? I forget the name) or one of the other many factions in the cities.

I think there is a lot more fun to be had going with the grain of the environment than lamenting the fact that the location requires a different kind of thought. You don't go to a foreign country and get frothing mad that the wall plugs don't fit your native configuration. You go out and pick up an adapter, maybe two .

Actually I’d say your logic is backwards. You don’t normally need to pick up an adapter for wall plugs in your own country

[mrm3ntalist]

No to normal hips for ranger. Of course if it is given I wont complain because "moar powa" is always nice.

The ranger class is exactly where it is supposed to be. One of the top classes when outdoors, above average when indoors. Normal hips makes no sense mechanically nor thematically. For everyone else, there is Assassin/Avenger, Shadow dancer and into a (much) lesser extend the cavestalker PRC.

My main character is Ranger26/Harper scout4 and is my fastest grinder, both indoors and outdoors. It can solo the Vault of the Dead faster than any other build while in the Frost Keep it only comes second to High DC arcane casters. I suppose i dont have to explain how invisible this class is when outdoors both in PvP and PvE. Indoors, even if you cant Hips, you can still corner hide and pick/prioritize your targets by utilizing track. Asking for hips on top of everything is an unnecessary, and simply put, blatant power creep.

Rangers could only use more spell slots to be able to utilize their familiar which is an important part of the ranger class. 3 3 3 2 spell slots is not compatible with a full CL class like the ranger prc is advertised to be.

[Grendunor]

Actually I’d say your logic is backwards. You don’t normally need to pick up an adapter for wall plugs in your own country

Cute, though seems you're in a scenario where you bought some foreign electronics and now find it's region gated. Make the effort to make it work for you. The tools are there for you to do it.

All the complaining does seem to zero-sum into a lot of bitching and moaning when if you spent the same time investigating the resources available you'd find the problem is actually a non-issue

[Tanlaus]

Actually I’d say your logic is backwards. You don’t normally need to pick up an adapter for wall plugs in your own country

Cute, though seems you're in a scenario where you bought some foreign electronics and now find it's region gated. Make the effort to make it work for you. The tools are there for you to do it.

I bought nothing. Don’t play a ranger. And actually I think cavestalker is a pretty good PRC because it gives access to tumble as a class skill, among other things.

But it does seem reasonable to think UD Rangers should be able the hide in the natural environments they are accustomed to, not the ones they may well never have seen before.

[mrm3ntalist]

But it does seem reasonable to think UD Rangers should be able the hide in the natural environments they are accustomed to, not the ones they may well never have seen before.

No it is not reasonable. You can twist that kind of logic and ask for every melee character to be able to HIPS.

Rangers have access to hide and MS skills and they can hide in order to initiate combat when they want. They just cant hips, like any other melee character. They dont need to catch the opponent flat footed in order to do damage (Sneak Attacks). Instead they do a shit load of damage no matter what. They have High BAB like every melee based character and depending the build it can get to 52+ AC. On top of that they have tools like tracking that enable them to be aware of any enemies nearby.

Like you said, you dont play rangers and that shows

[zhazz]

But it does seem reasonable to think UD Rangers should be able the hide in the natural environments they are accustomed to, not the ones they may well never have seen before.

No it is not reasonable. You can twist that kind of logic and ask for every melee character to be able to HIPS.

I think it would be a reasonble change, if an Underdark Ranger had their version of HIPS changed to work in the Underdark and in caves, but not on the surface. That way they match with their surface counter-parts, and actually lose something, when going to the other side.

Giving Rangers full on HIPS is obviously a big no.

[mrm3ntalist]

I think it would be a reasonble change, if an Underdark Ranger had their version of HIPS changed to work in the Underdark and in caves, but not on the surface. That way they match with their surface counter-parts, and actually lose something, when going to the other side.

By underdark you mean everywhere like indoors and outdoors? If so that doesnt make sense.

Cavestalker was supposed to do exactly what i think you are trying to say which is being able to hide in the outdoor areas of the ud and caves. However due to limitation having to do with flagging the areas appropriately it cant be done. Some more flexibility allowing ud ranger/cavestalker to hide into areas was added via a script, which i hope still works and wasnt "fixed". Nothing more could be done and thats why some additional perks were given to the cavestalker prc.

[Tanlaus]

But it does seem reasonable to think UD Rangers should be able the hide in the natural environments they are accustomed to, not the ones they may well never have seen before.

No it is not reasonable. You can twist that kind of logic and ask for every melee character to be able to HIPS.

Rangers have access to hide and MS skills and they can hide in order to initiate combat when they want. They just cant hips, like any other melee character. They dont need to catch the opponent flat footed in order to do damage (Sneak Attacks). Instead they do a (#2) load of damage no matter what. They have High BAB like every melee based character and depending the build it can get to 52+ AC. On top of that they have tools like tracking that enable them to be aware of any enemies nearby.

Like you said, you dont play rangers and that shows

I think you misunderstood my post. I was not saying I think rangers should have access to full hips. I do not.

I’m saying I thinks it’s a reasonable request that UD rangers should be able to hips in underground natural areas, like caves, at the expense of not being able to hips in above ground natural areas, like forests, without taking a PRC.

[zhazz]

I think it would be a reasonble change, if an Underdark Ranger had their version of HIPS changed to work in the Underdark and in caves, but not on the surface. That way they match with their surface counter-parts, and actually lose something, when going to the other side.

By underdark you mean everywhere like indoors and outdoors? If so that doesnt make sense.

No. What I mean is what I wrote in my first post in this thread.

I think it is perfectly fair to have Ranger HIPS default to whichever version makes the most sense for the character's natural environment.

Surface Rangers/Druids stay as they currently are.
Underdark Rangers/Druids get Underdark Affinity for free at a certain (low) class level, but also start out with a feat, which disables their natural abilities, when on the surface.

... snip ...

This due to pure logic, where it makes the most sense that Underdark Rangers and Druids have their natural abilities attuned to the Underdark, due to them living there. Just like their Surface counterparts have their natural abilities attuned to the Surface.

[mrm3ntalist]

By underdark you mean everywhere like indoors and outdoors? If so that doesnt make sense.

No. What I mean is what I wrote in my first post in this thread.

I think it is perfectly fair to have Ranger HIPS default to whichever version makes the most sense for the character's natural environment.

Surface Rangers/Druids stay as they currently are.
Underdark Rangers/Druids get Underdark Affinity for free at a certain (low) class level, but also start out with a feat, which disables their natural abilities, when on the surface.

... snip ...

This due to pure logic, where it makes the most sense that Underdark Rangers and Druids have their natural abilities attuned to the Underdark, due to them living there. Just like their Surface counterparts have their natural abilities attuned to the Surface.

I asked for exactly that during the implementation of the cavestalker prc. This cannot be done due to limitation with area design properties and how outdoor hips - which is hardcoded - works. If i remember correctly there was some issues with teleportation as well but lets say that doesnt matter for this topic.

https://nwn2.fandom.com/wiki/Areas:Toolset
"Underneath ‘General’ you will see a lot of important properties. Here, set underground, natural and interior to TRUE, as we are building some natural caves. I also gave the area a name – this is the name that will appear in game for the player. Notice that on the left in the area panel, the area has not renamed itself. If you want to change the name you see in the toolset, you must right click on the area in that panel, and select rename."

In a way, either both surface and ud rangers will be able to hide or not. You cannot differentiate. Because of the above limitation it couldnt be done for the cavestalker prc so it cannot be done for the ranger class either. Its not a matter of "want" to do it. Only some mambo-jumbo with scripts ( see cavestalker) can be done which is not 100% reliable.

[Thaelis]

You don't go to a foreign country and get frothing mad that the wall plugs don't fit your native configuration. You go out and pick up an adapter, maybe two .

Actually I’d say your logic is backwards. You don’t normally need to pick up an adapter for wall plugs in your own country

I was gonna say exactly this! Underdark rangers surely should come with an underdark wall plug, not a surface adapter that they must try fruitlessly to ram into the UD socket

Great analogy though.

[ARHicks00]

I'm well aware of the spell list for the ranger.

RANGER DO NOT HAVE ANY WEAPON DAMAGE OR DAMAGE OUTPUT INCREASING SPELLS FOR THEMSELVES.

Again: Blades of Fire.

I rest my case.

And furthermore, I advise you to not play a Ranger, and especially not a Ranger/Cavestalker. And the world...well at least this Permanent World...will be a better place for it. Cheers!

So I didn't see Blade of fire as a weapon damage increase, I'm somehow wrong about everything concerning rangers and thereforce should not play Ranger. Or is it because you're mad you couldn't make one valid point that I shouldn't play Rangers? Which one is it. Based on your past post, I'm going with the latter.

[ARHicks00]

No to normal hips for ranger. Of course if it is given I wont complain because "moar powa" is always nice.

The ranger class is exactly where it is supposed to be. One of the top classes when outdoors, above average when indoors. Normal hips makes no sense mechanically nor thematically. For everyone else, there is Assassin/Avenger, Shadow dancer and into a (much) lesser extend the cavestalker PRC.

My main character is Ranger26/Harper scout4 and is my fastest grinder, both indoors and outdoors. It can solo the Vault of the Dead faster than any other build while in the Frost Keep it only comes second to High DC arcane casters. I suppose i dont have to explain how invisible this class is when outdoors both in PvP and PvE. Indoors, even if you cant Hips, you can still corner hide and pick/prioritize your targets by utilizing track. Asking for hips on top of everything is an unnecessary, and simply put, blatant power creep.

Rangers could only use more spell slots to be able to utilize their familiar which is an important part of the ranger class. 3 3 3 2 spell slots is not compatible with a full CL class like the ranger prc is advertised to be.

1. I'm not against the idea of Rangers staying as they are, but if their HIPS needs changing it should be an upgrade, not a sideways grade. I would think CS is not good because you can get the same thing with SD, but then that's just me and my opinion.

2. My pure class shield bash STR ranger was awesome and could set traps too. When indoors, his fighting style is akin to what Rosarch said in Watchmen, "I'm not trap here with you, you're trapped here with me." When overwhelmed by 3 Minotaur in the maze area, he took them down in mere seconds and he was working his way to taking undead out with ease.

3. The thing is, the Ringer needs full PL (Pet level) for pet spells to be useful. I had a level 8 to 9 pet when I had level 17 to 18 Ranger in this server and my pet would get killed in short order. Unless the pet gets full PL, there is no reason to try to utilize my pet spells to make them useful. Also they could afford to get more spells that increase more range and melee damage, but I know the staff won't go for that so I ain't pushing for it.

[bharring]

There is a feat that ups your companion to the same as a druid of your level.

And druid pets feel right to me.