Help with Oversized 2WF

[Half-Apple]

Hi builders,
I've tried to make a build myself but I am unsure about the result because I really dunno what I am doing, especially when it comes at Epic Feats.
Any help/advice is much appreciated!

My idea is to make a character that fight with 2 Bastard Swords, to do that I thought about mixing Fighter/Dervish/Tempest/Weapon Master.

Race: Moon Elf
Divinity: Sehanine
Alignment: Neutral Good

STR: 14
DEX: 18 -> 25
COS: 12
INT: 14
WIS: 10
CHA: 10

1. Fighter - Dodge, Mobility
2. Fighter - Combat Expertise
3. Fighter - Weapon Proficiency (Exotic)
4. Fighter - Spring Attack
5. Fighter
6. Fighter - Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), Weapon Specialization (Bastard Sword)
7. Dervish
8. Dervish
9. Dervish - Power Attack
10. Dervish
11. Tempest
12. Tempest - Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting
13. Tempest
14. Tempest
15. Tempest - Cleave
16. Weapon Master - Weapon of Choice (Bastard Sword)
17. Weapon Master
18. Weapon Master - Great Cleave
19. Weapon Master
20. Weapon Master
21. Weapon Master - Epic Prowess
22. Weapon Master
23. Dervish - Improved Critical (Bastard Sword)
24. Fighter
25. Fighter - Greater Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword), Epic Weapon Focus (Bastard Sword)
26. Dervish
27. Dervish - Power Critical (Bastard Sword)
28. Dervish
29. Dervish - Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting
30. Dervish

Skillset:

Tumble 16
Perform 33
UMD 16

and maybe some Parrying.

HP: 330
Main Hand: +40/+35/+30/+25/+20/+15
Second Hand: +40/+35/+30/+25/+20/+15

I am also worried about the AC.
I am sorry but I dunno how to save these things on nwn2db so I wrote them down manually.

Someone expert can help me?

[Zkenic]

First things first, I do not see two weapon fighting or improved two weapon fighting, needed for tempest.

Second, no weapon finesse means your bastard sword attacks will have lower AB. This will be doubly frustrating at lower levels, pre-epic weapon focus especially.

Third, usually the value of tempest/fighter for duel wielding is you only need 17 dex, and can pump str instead.

Fourth, cleave and great cleave are garbage and are not needed in the slightest. Pick other feats.\

Work with that, and let me know.

[Half-Apple]

Maybe I am wrong but don't you get TWF and Improved as first level Tempest?

[Trinket]

Maybe I am wrong but don't you get TWF and Improved as first level Tempest?

Unfortunately not, Improved TWF is a pre-req for Tempest. At level 1 of Tempest, you get " 1 Tempest Defense (+1 AC) "

[Zkenic]

You do get the feats two weapon fighting and improved two weapon fighting if you are a ranger, as the ranger twf feats are technically their own set of feats.

[Half-Apple]

Is that any better?

https://nwn2db.com/build/?329131

[chad878262]

My comments:

1. Sorry, but PTWF on a build that has no sneak dice or other method of providing for damage outside STR is a bad idea for all, but a few very specific scenarios. Dervish helps, but your dances and thousand cuts uses are limited and your damage is going to be pretty crap when not using one or the other.

2. Why not stop DEX at 17 (required for Improved TWF)? You get GTWF for free at Tempest 3 and pumping STR is going to help you with both AB and damage. DEX 26 + 4 DEX gloves and +6 IMA = +16 Armor AC. 17+3 DEX with Bearskin Armor (+4 Mithril Breastplate) = 14 AC, 16 w/ IMA wand so AC is the same either way. The three extra attacks you get from PTWF are with your offhand (which means only 1/2 STR modifier to damage) and at the end of the attack round (so -15, -20, -25 AB). Your AB is 30 + 4 (STR w/ +4 item) + 4 (EB) + 2 (Tempest) + 4 (EWF) + 1 (WM) + 1 (EP) - 2 (TWF) = 44 so the 3 PTWF attacks are AB 29, 24, 19. You might land one of those against epic mobs. You will gain more damage focusing on STR than you will lose from the one extra hit. If you pump STR you'll have higher AB and this will make your main hand attacks and 3 offhand attacks more likely to hit as well. 26 STR vs. 18 STR is +4 AB and damage (+2 Damage to offhand).

3. For feats, Improved Crit is a waste here. Unfortunately between wands and charged items that require no UMD Keen is insanely cheap so no need to go for Improved Crit. Replacing this with Northlander Hewing will help a great deal against DR (which most epic mobs and bosses have). Assuming lower DEX to 17 and pumping STR to ~23 (26 w/ +3 item) that will give a flat +8 damage to all attacks. Power Critical is a waste in epics and really should not be needed. Since going moon elf having those two great STR feats is better.

4. Fighter 12 would really help here so you can get +2 more AB and + 6 damage (Greater/Epic Weapon Specialization as well as Melee Mastery). Of course if you want to leave it as is that's fine, but you could drop Tempest to 3 and either Dervish to 8 or WM to 5. While you lose some stuff like Tempest Whirlwind and possibly 1,000 cuts, if you think about it, 1,000 cuts gives 2d6 (average ~7 damage) for a total of 90 seconds per rest. Compare to have +6 damage all the time... Dervish Dance is only 5 times per day for a max of 2 minutes (10 minutes total per rest). So again, you can leave as is, but just calling out that you're gaining a very small power boost for a limited number of times per day at the cost of always on boost.

5. This is less an issue since everyone should make choices for RP as well as ascetics as they see fit. I just want to call out mechanically dropping Exotic Weapon Proficiency and using a Longsword is a better choice. It is only a difference of an average of ~1 damage per hit and everything else about LS and BS is exactly the same. Unless it is part of a backstory or there is a specific weapon you want to use there are better feats that will provide more bang for your very limited buck (feats.)

Overall I think the main thing here is you are going after a PTWF build without a whole lot of damage. ~5.5 (weapon) + 4 (STR) + 4 (EB) + 2 (WS) = ~15.5 main hand damage (~13.5 offhand) per hit. Dervish Dance pushes this to ~20.5 which is still awfully low for what is supposed to be a damage dealer. On top of this your max AC will be 10 + 10 (DEX) + 3 (Tumble) + 2 (Tempest) + 3 (Dervish) + 12 (Deflection/Dodge/Natural) + 4 (Cloth armor +4) = 44, 46 w/ IMA, 50 w/ Shield. Not terrible, but you'd expect something that other than short term (5 minutes) has 46 AC w/ no HiPS can do more damage. With your AC and low damage mobs are going to wreck your HP because you don't kill them quickly enough. Going STR based won't fully address this, but it will help, especially since the bonus STR damage crits. Northlander Hewing will help more.

If you really want PTWF consider going something like R21/Dervish 9 or R23/WM7. This way you can leave DEX at 14 (w/ cats grace and Mithril Chainmail) while still getting PTWF and maxing out STR. Just a thought. Outside Ranger 21 PTWF builds are very buff dependent for damage and the buffing wands available for you (Flame Weapon, Bless Weapon, Holy Sword[requires LG alignment], etc.) are very short duration (90s for holy sword, 3m for flame weapon, 5m for bless weapon). It can be done of course, but for me it would be very frustrating since killing a mob with ~400+ HP while doing less than ~10 damage per hit (DR) and taking ~50-100 HP damage per round gets very old, very quick.

[Half-Apple]

Wow, thank you Chad for the effort in your reply. Really mind-blowing!
I guess there's no way to make it work, I like the concept for roleplay but probably it doesn't fit the mechanics.

Now I have to think what to do with that character.

[KOPOJIbPAKOB]

Hello, Half-Apple!

Basically, the build you're looking for is this: https://nwn2db.com/build/?174467 (play around with stats to fit it for an elf)
It's a pretty popular build on Bg, variations of it are played by many characters. It's mostly a PvP orientirered build, mind you. If you want Dervish, you need to sacrifice Weaponmaster, so it would be smth like F12 / R3 / Derv 10 / Temp 5. Fitting both WM and Dervish into one build is possible, but there's more to lose than gain doing so. Optionally, replace Rogue levels with Shadowdancer on any of these builds, effectively trading full UMD progression for Hips.

The reason why full-dex is a waste here is you're using Oversized 2wf (as stated in the title!), so your character will use STR for attack bonus in any case, making dexterity pretty much useless (except possibility to qualify for PTWF). I've seen a full-dex version of this build and it worked! But the character was using finessable weapons instead of oversized, that's an important difference.

[chad878262]

Wow, thank you Chad for the effort in your reply. Really mind-blowing!

You're welcome.

I guess there's no way to make it work, I like the concept for roleplay but probably it doesn't fit the mechanics.

I'm a bit confused by this statement. What are you trying to make work? I explained it mechanically, but realistically can you imagine someone fighting with two bastard swords swinging as quickly as someone wielding two daggers or short swords? Now, as Rhifox explains it two weapon fighting is so unrealistic as it is as to be laughable, so realism need not enter in to the conversation. However, it simply begs the question of why you *MUST* have PTWF for the concept to work? GTWF still provides 3 offhand attacks per round and you will still see the TWF animations. Mechanically the concept definitely works, it just requires you to take a slightly different approach and have more of a STR/DEX split. Isn't that ok? Does it really make sense for someone to easily wield two 4 foot long swords if they are not exceptionally strong? When you consider all of this having a 17 DEX with more STR makes a lot of sense. 17 DEX is by no means clumsy after all.

Of course it is your call if you move forward with the concept or flip to another, but there are plenty of GTWF weapon Masters out there (usually either with Longswords or Scimitars) which would indicate the concept works quite well. Adding in Dervish and Tempest grants the AC to make it survivable (50 should be plenty, but luck of hero's and/or CE/ICE combat mode can definitely push it over the edge to where you are only hit by a 20 and less reliant on short term shield buff). Your split of F8/D10/WM7/T5 works perfectly well and the F12 was only a suggestion, one where you actually give up some AC for more AB and damage that is always on and by no means necessary.

Whatever you decide, happy gaming.