Half-Orc Sorcerer - CON Focus - SUB-OPTIMAL

[Cinnamon]

Title

Current Stats: 18 Str, 8 Dex, 17 Con, 10 Int ((Have too for Draconic & Skill Points)), 8 Wis, 13 CHA - Low CHA namely because +2 ((DD)) & +3 ((Ring)) is enough with level-up to reach 9th

Background Feat: Foreigner, for Draconic ((10 Int + Foreigner = +1 Bonus Language, strange "glitch" with Half-Orc))

So far I get the idea I want to be Sorcerer 6, Eldritch 5 or up to 10, Dragon Disciple 10 with Paladin filling the leftover levels.

Since that gives me; Concentration Focus, Combat Casting, Still Spell with Armour ((Mithral???)).

I also wonder if going Bard into DD is just better for an Armoured Caster?


Currently my plans are:

Sorcerer
Paladin
Paladin
Paladin
Sorcerer x5 ((6 Sorcerer))
Eldritch x5 ((5th Circle))
Dragon Disciple x10
Paladin x6

= Sorcerer 6 / Eldritch 5 / DD 10 / Paladin 9

Feats:

Draconic Heritage ((For Sorcerer to be available))

Still Spell ((Mandatory for build))

Quicken ((Maybe?))

Extend ((Mandatory afaik))

Practised Caster ((To put me at 24 CL for buff durations))

Craft Wand

Scribe Scroll

5 Empty Slots, 3 Epic, no idea what to take, as BGTSCC has a separate list to NWNbuilder.


Skill Points:

Arcana 8, Spellcraft 30, Concentration 32 (41) + 3, +6 [Modifier], -4 +4 = 41

[Svabodnik]

Chicken familiar doesn't require Improved - it's one of the options available base from the freely granted Bind Familiar feat.

[Cinnamon]

Chicken familiar doesn't require Improved - it's one of the options available base from the freely granted Bind Familiar feat.

Learn something new everyday! There's a new free feat slot, thanks~

Makes the edit

[chad878262]

Since that gives me; Concentration Focus, Combat Casting, Still Spell with Armour ((Mithral???)).

even with mithril armors you will need still / auto-still if you want to cast without removing said armor. Based on your DEX I would say you want Full Plate (not mithril) so yeah, auto-still 1-6 is minimum, 1-9 preferable.

I also wonder if going Bard into DD is just better for an Armoured Caster?

Bard can't be paladin so does not work with what you are trying to do here. Also, Bard's don't get any level 5 spells until CL14. So B11/EK4 (or B12/EK3) is needed before you qualify for DD. That means you are at B11/EK4/DD3 giving 18 total levels, so you can't even flip Paladin to instead grab Blackguard as you won't meet the 3b20 requirements. So for what you appear to be trying to accomplish I feel Sorcerer is really your only option.

= Sorcerer 6 / Eldritch 5 / DD 10 / Paladin 9

I am confused by the split. You have 8 WIS so you won't be making use of any low level Paladin spells. What is the point here? You are also not going EDM/Divine Shield route since you'll only have an adjusted CHA of ~19 or 20. What exactly are you going for? I am all for reducing caster level when you are getting something in return and of course if it is an RP thing, that's fine. However, this seems to be an ask for mechanical feedback and I am just not getting what you're going for on this one. You are taking an XP penalty and only getting CL20 (-9 Paladin -3 DD -1 EK = -14 + 4 PSC = CL20). On top of this, you won't get level 9 spells, which a Sorc only gets at CL18 ( before PSC you will be CL16 so only level 8 spells). Anything you get from Pally on this build you get stopping at 3 levels. So S7/EK10/DD10/P3 (BAB 21, CL27) or S6/P4/EK10/DD10 (BAB 22, CL26) makes far more sense while keeping the same classes to support the RP.

Extend ((Mandatory afaik))

Especially for a sorcerer this is more convenient then mandatory. The number of casts per day and ability to reapply easily makes Extend a luxury feat more than anything. Don't get me wrong, being able to have longer duration haste/displacement is huge, but you can certainly be effective without it.

4 Empty Slots, 3 Epic, no idea what to take, as BGTSCC has a separate list to NWNbuilder.

For the classes you have selected there are a couple things you can do. If you want to use the couple of spells that are impacted by draconic heritage feats you can grab more of them, but what you got is not worth it IMO. since you have high STR I would say you can get good value out of Northlander Hewing. For pre-epic I would say Draconic, PSC, NH, Extend, Still and you have two more of your choice (personally I feel that scribe scroll/craft wand is an utter waste on a Sorcerer, but your call). I would consider Knockdown/IKD on a STR build, but you said CON focus so maybe not? Limited benefit to pumping CON unless you take toughness / steadfast on this build so that is another option to be tanky both in melee and saving throws.

For Epic, Great STR as needed in order to ensure your AB is where you want it, other than that Epic Dragon Knight is flavorful to your concept so I would probably take that (even though Gate is slightly better, who cares?) You get 5 epic feats so Auto-still 1, 2 and 3 plus epic dragon knight would leave you one remaining. if STR is odd take a great STR. If STR just take whatever feels right. If you need AC help, Armor Skin. Need AB, Epic Prowess. Don't need those? Grab another epic spell (but note your crap DCs) or some other feat that grants you something fun.

[Cinnamon]

even with mithril armors you will need still / auto-still if you want to cast without removing said armor. Based on your DEX I would say you want Full Plate (not mithril) so yeah, auto-still 1-6 is minimum, 1-9 preferable.

Honestly I hit jackpot and the first item I looted was Mithral Armour on her, so thought I may as well just run with it, as I want to avoid Mull Boosting a heavy RP Character ((Literally only giving her Asenath Ring and that's it, as Concentration points are later in the build))

Bard can't be paladin so does not work with what you are trying to do here. Also, Bard's don't get any level 5 spells until CL14. So B11/EK4 (or B12/EK3) is needed before you qualify for DD. That means you are at B11/EK4/DD3 giving 18 total levels, so you can't even flip Paladin to instead grab Blackguard as you won't meet the 3b20 requirements. So for what you appear to be trying to accomplish I feel Sorcerer is really your only option.

True enough, I always forget Bard is alignment restricted because I rarely roll Lawfuls >.>
Sorcerer it is, then. Thanks~

I am confused by the split. You have 8 WIS so you won't be making use of any low level Paladin spells. What is the point here? You are also not going EDM/Divine Shield route since you'll only have an adjusted CHA of ~19 or 20. What exactly are you going for? I am all for reducing caster level when you are getting something in return and of course if it is an RP thing, that's fine. However, this seems to be an ask for mechanical feedback and I am just not getting what you're going for on this one. You are taking an XP penalty and only getting CL20 (-9 Paladin -3 DD -1 EK = -14 + 4 PSC = CL20). On top of this, you won't get level 9 spells, which a Sorc only gets at CL18 ( before PSC you will be CL16 so only level 8 spells). Anything you get from Pally on this build you get stopping at 3 levels. So S7/EK10/DD10/P3 (BAB 21, CL27) or S6/P4/EK10/DD10 (BAB 22, CL26) makes far more sense while keeping the same classes to support the RP.

Honestly I just didn't know what else to put, since once I hit level 20, I have no other classes to really take, and I can't omega stall out DD until lv.30 just to squeeze something else in, I feel DD being as late as it currently is sucks is awkward already.

I'd chalk up my random 6 epic level paladin levels as me just simply being very uninformed of BGTSCC Classes and what available options for this build there are.
Happy to take on-board any suggestions.

However, this seems to be an ask for mechanical feedback

It is, I kinda forgot to write the "PLEASE HELP" part, my bad.

What exactly are you going for?

Thar runaway of a Barghtul Clan, who converts to Amaunator ((Lathander)), as there is the Rosestone Abbey in Thar dedicated to Amaunator, albeit a ruins, and since Amauntor's Doctrine is heavily Law focused, it's inevitable a character would pick up some Paladin training along the way ((Even if RP wise I have to ask to be accepted as a Lathanderite Paladin, it's hardly a difference to complain about as they become interchangeable in the books)).

Given Barghtul heavily focuses on strength and stupidity, it seemed natural to take Eldritch+Sorcerer to warrant the background of being a melee raider that takes up their Sorcerer levels. ((Effectively removing their levels and rerolling as a lv.1 Sorcerer that's still got high Str & Con from their prior life))

Generally, the RP line here is to find someone who knows about Amaunator, become their Understudy to learn about it, effectively someone is just going to tell Chalk that Amaunator is long dead, which will make her sad, but hopefully they teach her about Lathander, and by extension, she would seek Paladinship with the Temple of such.

easily makes Extend a luxury feat more than anything.

Oh for sure, I'm just empty handed on slots, so Extend Haste is the only reason it's here, unless there is something much better, that's my default for Casters.

For the classes you have selected there are a couple things you can do etc...

I just took Draconic Heritage for the hardruling that it's required for this person to be a Sorcerer, there's no other feats I'd take for the boost.
I always play by the book, in that regard.

Northlander Hewing sounds fun, always wanted to try it. Uhh... What's PSC & NH?

(personally I feel that scribe scroll/craft wand is an utter waste on a Sorcerer, but your call)

Not wrong, just again filling slots with RP / Luxury as a failsafe. I enjoy being a Crafter Bot, always will. It's very rewarding RP, even if it has absolutely nothing to do with the character. Which, in this case, Netheril's God is definitely someone who would permit being a Crafter, so it's not out of the way.

other than that Epic Dragon Knight is flavorful to your concept

Honestly I find Epic Dragon dishes out more usefulness than Epic Gate, just because of the ridiculous breath attacks, albeit very clunky AI...
ahems, but yes, Dragon Knight was one of my luxury options if there really isn't any hardcode feat I need / should be taking.

Paraphrase: Take feats that supplement what you're missing

Understood.

Thanks for the talk so far Chad, and for the very swift response. <3
Might take some more back and forth, and sorry if I missed things, I'll answer any queries and comments as necessary. ^-^

[Steve]

...13 CHA - low CHA namely because +2 ((DD)) & +3 ((Ring))

Doesn’t one need CHA 19 for Level 9 spells?

[Cinnamon]

Doesn’t one need CHA 19 for Level 9 spells?

Level up bonuses.

[chad878262]

Honestly I hit jackpot and the first item I looted was Mithral Armour on her, so thought I may as well just run with it, as I want to avoid Mull Boosting a heavy RP Character ((Literally only giving her Asenath Ring and that's it, as Concentration points are later in the build))

Ok, but you only have 8 DEX so the mithril isn't doing much for ya... Even a Mithril chain shirt has 10% ASF so unless you got some godly drop with 0 ASF (which I assume is not the case since you still are planning to grab still/auto-still) you are better off (eventually) using Full Plate w/ +4 DEX gloves or Cat's Grace. That maximizes your AC. Even if you have Mithril Full Plate, you might as well sell it for ~100K or whatever and get a Full Plate with some cool benefits that you can put IMA on anyway. Dragon Plate etc. does more for your PC than mithril armor, as one example. In the early levels it's a bit of a moot point, just use whatever you got. However, long term mithril armor doesn't bring any benefit to your PC. With Pally levels I'd probably try to acquire Armor of Gram the Mouse for that sweet, sweet DR 5/- Magical.

Honestly I just didn't know what else to put, since once I hit level 20, I have no other classes to really take, and I can't omega stall out DD until lv.30 just to squeeze something else in, I feel DD being as late as it currently is sucks is awkward already.

I'd chalk up my random 6 epic level paladin levels as me just simply being very uninformed of BGTSCC Classes and what available options for this build there are.
Happy to take on-board any suggestions.

As I said, really all you are getting from Pally is a slight bonus to saving throws from CHA. I kind of feel like you'd be better off just going S6/F4/EK10/DD10 in this case for a small damage bump (WS). However, since Pally is a part of the RP I would recommend either S7/P3 or S6/P4 as outlined in my first post. This will give you either BAB21/CL27 or BAB22/CL26. Either is fine and kind of a toss up. With a sorcerer I'd probably go for the extra point of BAB simply because you have an easier time reapplying buffs if they happen to get dispelled. At CL26 a Greater Dispel is d20+20 vs. 11+26=37. So only 20% chance of dispel, thus on average if you're running around with 10 buffs and get hit with a CL20+ Greater Dispel you will need to reapply 2 or 3 buffs. Not the end of the world. Obviously CL27 (15%) is better, but your total AB is in the zone where very extra bit you can get helps.... Unless you are going to make heavy use of Tenser's, that is...

What's PSC & NH?

Practiced Spell Caster and Northlander Hewing.

Thanks for the talk so far Chad, and for the very swift response. <3
Might take some more back and forth, and sorry if I missed things, I'll answer any queries and comments as necessary. ^-^

No worries, my elf may not treat your half-orc kindly, but that doesn't mean I don't want you to enjoy the RP and mechanical value of your PC. LOL

[Cinnamon]

Ok, but you only have 8 DEX so the mithril isn't doing much for ya... Even a Mithril chain shirt has 10% ASF so unless you got some godly drop with 0 ASF (which I assume is not the case since you still are planning to grab still/auto-still) you are better off (eventually) using Full Plate w/ +4 DEX gloves or Cat's Grace. That maximizes your AC. Even if you have Mithril Full Plate, you might as well sell it for ~100K or whatever and get a Full Plate with some cool benefits that you can put IMA on anyway. Dragon Plate etc. does more for your PC than mithril armor, as one example. In the early levels it's a bit of a moot point, just use whatever you got. However, long term mithril armor doesn't bring any benefit to your PC. With Pally levels I'd probably try to acquire Armor of Gram the Mouse for that sweet, sweet DR 5/- Magical.

I'm still mad I found out today Mithral with no stat bonus is worth 100k a plop, and I've just been dropping god knows how many Mithral Suits onto Blunt for 1,400...
Internal bleeding and screaming


Alright so Full Plate with Paladin 4 and Paladin Special armour for DR5...

Practiced Spell Caster and Northlander Hewing.

Wow I'm super f'ing stupid

As I said, really all you are getting from Pally is a slight bonus to saving throws from CHA. I kind of feel like you'd be better off just going S6/F4/EK10/DD10 in this case for a small damage bump (WS). However, since Pally is a part of the RP I would recommend either S7/P3 or S6/P4 as outlined in my first post. This will give you either BAB21/CL27 or BAB22/CL26. Either is fine and kind of a toss up. With a sorcerer I'd probably go for the extra point of BAB simply because you have an easier time reapplying buffs if they happen to get dispelled. At CL26 a Greater Dispel is d20+20 vs. 11+26=37. So only 20% chance of dispel, thus on average if you're running around with 10 buffs and get hit with a CL20+ Greater Dispel you will need to reapply 2 or 3 buffs. Not the end of the world. Obviously CL27 (15%) is better, but your total AB is in the zone where very extra bit you can get helps.... Unless you are going to make heavy use of Tenser's, that is...

Yeah I'm inclined to agree the 4 Paladin route is significantly better over a 5% chance, as much as that 5% chance is probably a much higher roll factor, the +1 BAB is objectively +1 BAB... If that makes sense. Thanks for assisting me on an RP Build ^^ I do wonder if I'm allowed to become an Amaunator Paladin, seems the faith is still active in Faith & Powers even though the God is classified as axed. Plus, it's a pretty interesting lore-point that's apparently been used on the Server before.


What about my current levelling? Sorcerer > 3 Paladin > Sorcerer to Eldritch is fine, yeah?

No worries, my elf may not treat your half-orc kindly, but that doesn't mean I don't want you to enjoy the RP and mechanical value of your PC. LOL

Tbh as per usual, the first ever RP she got was someone spitting on the floor as they walked by her.

Please treat my ICs as inhumanely as possible, it brings me great Nerd Feels to see realistic attributes of DnD. <3

[Steve]

Doesn’t one need CHA 19 for Level 9 spells?

Level up bonuses.

13 + 2 (DD lvl 10 CHA bonus) + 3 (ring) = 18.

[Cinnamon]

13 + 2 (DD lvl 10 CHA bonus) + 3 (ring) = 18.

... There's an available +7 CHA from levelling... And X from possible epic feats... Realistically I am taking 1 point

[chad878262]

I'm still mad I found out today Mithral with no stat bonus is worth 100k a plop, and I've just been dropping god knows how many Mithral Suits onto Blunt for 1,400...

Well technically only mithril full plate will sell for ~100K (and it appears these days it is more like 80K on Mudd's). Mithril Chainmail is ~30K, and Mithril Breastplate maybe around ~20K if it has extra's. Everything else is less, Mithril Chain Shirts have value, but unless they have enchantments they are actually not worth enough to be able to list them on Mudd's auction. I've vendor trashed plenty of plain mithril armors as unfortunately not many characters are built in such a way that the non-optimum armors still have some value.

I do wonder if I'm allowed to become an Amaunator Paladin, seems the faith is still active in Faith & Powers even though the God is classified as axed. Plus, it's a pretty interesting lore-point that's apparently been used on the Server before.

My guess would actually be no it is not allowed as you must Play your Sheet and Amaunator is not listed as a selectable deity. Plus, we are in 1e timeline so it is assumed during our server time that Amaunator is a very little known (probably need decent lore:religion to know about him) Netherese deity of the sun. Later (post spellplague) it is thought that Lathander was an aspect of the long sleeping Amaunator. However, during our timeline that is not even a theory as far as I am aware... ***NOTE: I am not nearly the lore expert of others on this server nor am I a DM so this is all just my thoughts/opinions. I would highly recommend you discuss with the DM Team for an official ruling if you're deadset on worshipping Amaunator or any deity that is not selectable.

Sorcerer > 3 Paladin > Sorcerer to Eldritch is fine, yeah?

Depends on your skill breakdown. Since you don't have to worry about taking Divine Might/Shield it really just boils down to skills. I would probably go Sorc 6->P1->EK1 and then level EK until you qualify for DD. So like S6/P1/EK5 at 12 so you can get DD at 13. Then you can mix in P2 and P3 on your way to 20. At 20 you'll be S6/P3/EK5/DD6. Then in epics I would I would take EK to 7 (gets you to 16 BAB for your 3rd attack) then I would probably get DD to 10 and then EKto 10, finishing off taking P4 at 30. However, I will always adjust leveling based on the fact that you can carry over a max of 5 skill points and avoiding the need for Practiced Caster. So depending what skills you want I'd recommend adjusting according to that.

13 + 2 (DD lvl 10 CHA bonus) + 3 (ring) = 18.

I believe he is saying he's going to use one of his level up bonuses to get it to 19. With Half-Orc getting +2 STR, +1 CON, -2 INT, -2 CHA, starting with 18 STR, 17 CON and 13 CHA is not really ideal as that is a total of 5 times you are spending 2 points at creation. However, if you're ok with 8 DEX/WIS and 10 INT, that's fine. It's still an optimal split and putting 1 point in CHA at 4 still means you can end with 24 STR with the rest of your level up stat increases.

[Steve]

13 + 2 (DD lvl 10 CHA bonus) + 3 (ring) = 18.

... There's an available +7 CHA from levelling... And X from possible epic feats... Realistically I am taking 1 point

Got it. It was not explained clearly in the OP. But if you're staring at 13 CHA, with +2 from DD level 10, +7 from Leveling up, you still end with 22 CHA without any Epic Feats spent. A +3 CHA ring won't do you as good as you can get—consult this Table, and see how you want your CHA to end on an even number for better bonus spells.

If you are going for a DC caster, every bit of CHA matters. If you are going for a melee/Shapechange caster, then do realize you cannot use any Items with Bonus Spells, because it is borked for shapechanging. And then still high CHA matters for lots of spells.

Good luck!

[Cinnamon]

Well technically only mithril full plate will sell for ~100K (and it appears these days it is more like 80K on Mudd's). Mithril Chainmail is ~30K, and Mithril Breastplate maybe around ~20K if it has extra's. Everything else is less, Mithril Chain Shirts have value, but unless they have enchantments they are actually not worth enough to be able to list them on Mudd's auction. I've vendor trashed plenty of plain mithril armors as unfortunately not many characters are built in such a way that the non-optimum armors still have some value.

In a perfect World... I mean honestly, throw any Mithral at me, I'll buy them lmao. I'm always running new ideas and Mithral goes a fair mile.

Good to know how each is priced though, so thanks a bunch~

My guess would actually be no it is not allowed as you must Play your Sheet and Amaunator is not listed as a selectable deity. Plus, we are in 1e timeline so it is assumed during our server time that Amaunator is a very little known (probably need decent lore:religion to know about him) Netherese deity of the sun. Later (post spellplague) it is thought that Lathander was an aspect of the long sleeping Amaunator. However, during our timeline that is not even a theory as far as I am aware... ***NOTE: I am not nearly the lore expert of others on this server nor am I a DM so this is all just my thoughts/opinions. I would highly recommend you discuss with the DM Team for an official ruling if you're deadset on worshipping Amaunator or any deity that is not selectable.

They ran an actual DM Event about Amaunator at one point on the server, some characters still know about him, which piqued my curiosity on if I can play one. Always loved Amaunator, literally the deity of "Shady Lawyer", very interesting Ethos to follow and adhere too as a Lawful Good.

Failing that, as I've said, I intend to just go for Lathander and side-line knowing of Amaunator very vaugely and never in name. ((As the writings that would be found, should reasonably be in Netherese, which my Half-Orc cannot speak))

Oh it's fine to give opinions, no need for the note. It's always an iffy subject, following Gods that aren't selectable or talking about them.
On the same hand, we can 100% roll Ao as a Deity, which is completely illegal for this timeline, as he is only known Post ToT lol.

Depends on your skill breakdown. Since you don't have to worry about taking Divine Might/Shield it really just boils down to skills. I would probably go Sorc 6->P1->EK1 and then level EK until you qualify for DD. So like S6/P1/EK5 at 12 so you can get DD at 13. Then you can mix in P2 and P3 on your way to 20. At 20 you'll be S6/P3/EK5/DD6. Then in epics I would I would take EK to 7 (gets you to 16 BAB for your 3rd attack) then I would probably get DD to 10 and then EKto 10, finishing off taking P4 at 30. However, I will always adjust leveling based on the fact that you can carry over a max of 5 skill points and avoiding the need for Practiced Caster. So depending what skills you want I'd recommend adjusting according to that.

I always roll it by ear / XP. Usually I take my 3b20 splits on the first three levels, as it's basically "free XP" and not the gruelling punishment of later grabbing 20k+ a level, only to throw away that level to adhere to 3b20 split.

If I go by your list with my own; Sorc 1 > Paladin 3(4) > Sorc 6(9) > EK 5(14) > DD 10 (24) > EK 10 (29) > Paladin 4 (30) is what I'd be doing?

Idk I feel like getting to DD 10 is the important part.

Skills are for once not all that important, she only needs Concentration & Spellcraft. Just skip skill points on Paladin levels, dump into Arcana for DD, then roll Con/Spell craft on Sorc/EK/DD levels. At least to my knowledge.

I believe he is saying he's going to use one of his level up bonuses to get it to 19. With Half-Orc getting +2 STR, +1 CON, -2 INT, -2 CHA, starting with 18 STR, 17 CON and 13 CHA is not really ideal as that is a total of 5 times you are spending 2 points at creation. However, if you're ok with 8 DEX/WIS and 10 INT, that's fine. It's still an optimal split and putting 1 point in CHA at 4 still means you can end with 24 STR with the rest of your level up stat increases.

Ding Ding Cash Money.

[Cinnamon]

Got it. It was not explained clearly in the OP. But if you're staring at 13 CHA, with +2 from DD level 10, +7 from Leveling up, you still end with 22 CHA without any Epic Feats spent. A +3 CHA ring won't do you as good as you can get—consult this Table, and see how you want your CHA to end on an even number for better bonus spells.

If you are going for a DC caster, every bit of CHA matters. If you are going for a melee/Shapechange caster, then do realize you cannot use any Items with Bonus Spells, because it is borked for shapechanging. And then still high CHA matters for lots of spells.

Good luck!

Thanks, I am aware about the Shapeshifting stuff but thank you all the same. Thanks for joining in. <3