Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2020)

[gedweyignasia]

Like Chad said, especially once you get to level 15 or so, you can definitely still grind lower-level areas for loot. If you go looting a CR8 level at Level 15, you'll just get a bit less than the people that area was intended for. If you loot a CR4 area, you probably won't get more than a few gold coins; that's more than just below your level, that's pitiful.

It's pretty gentle, but if you want to get rich, your best bet is to party up. It's the best we can do to encourage players to loot areas that are appropriately dangerous without requiring that you loot CR30 bosses to get good stuff.

Recall that at one point chests were locked and inaccessible to players who were too high level; you got nothing.

[Lockonnow]

we use to have more loot spot in the past for about 3 years a go that is why i ask if a lvl 30 could loot a lvl one cl if you have take that a way it cant be fund anymore couse some allways need a change of fun but what i wish is random caves and Dungeons design of the small caves and Dungeons when you inter them just like the old school ruins the room do change per reset

[Snarfy]

Don't get me wrong guys, I get what you're trying to do. Implementing a mechanical restriction on loot quality based on character level is one thing, but it shouldn't necessarily be implemented as a means of "encouraging grouping". Not every character, or every player(LIKE ME), is group compatible. On any given day, even just finding RP can be a chore, and the same goes for groups. I can only speak for myself here, but when there isn't anyone online to RP or group with, a low/mid/high level dungeon crawl solo is a nice escape.

That being said, if I'm not playing one of my more optimal builds, or my sneak, going to a CR appropriate dungeon isn't always an option. With the way this implementation is trending(and I know it's still being fine tuned, no worries), I am a little concerned about having to spend my in game time searching for a group(*barf* ) just to go through a worthwhile dungeon, but also having less options in terms of dungeons that I can visit in order to find anything that isn't a few gold. Personally, I don't care about being rich, most of my epic characters are set, and gold isn't really a motivator in why I go dungeon running, plus the random loot generator has always hated me. I just enjoy having the ability to go and find a few trinkets in between idling(which I find I'm doing more and more often since the change), plus some of the low/mid tier dungeons are atmospherically great, but they don't seem as appealing to visit now that it's just small gold amounts. No scrolls, no books, no potions, no weird stuff, just bleh... gold. Ya know?

This is a late idea, but was a more simple version ever considered? For example: CR 1 through 10 dungeons yielding +1/+2 gear and other level appropriate items, CR 11- 20 having +2/+3 gear, and so forth, and then a sprinkle in some of those low percentile things like dusty tomes. Or is that even doable?

[Planehopper]

I am feeling what Snarfy is saying.

I don't want to run through the hilltop mines on my level 30 and expect to find mass amounts of treasure, but I play some level 30 characters that, when solo, go through places like the reaching woods, on down to places like the gnoll fort and orc caves. Heck, quests will send characters there at any level.

By necessitating a party situation it does cut back on opportunities for many archetypes, RP personalities, and even ooc personalities. The only way to somewhat minimize this is to focus on mechanics and/or powerbuild.

How many parties of 4-5 are people finding that A) have time to play together, B) are of appropriate CR, C) Appropriate RP, and D) want to play the game at the same pace (between running a dungeon and walking a dungeon, ooc vs ic)?

Perhaps being a pariah I have less luck, but the above does not happen often.

[gedweyignasia]

You can go to dungeons reasonably below your level and still get loot (albeit worse loot). You just can't go very far below your level. As Chad mentioned, a Level 17 character can loot a CR10 area and get loot.

[chad878262]

note that the change in no way *REQUIRES* you to have a party to get good loot. To be honest, with the revision to utilize proper tiered chests in higher CR area's, even if you are level 30 going through CR 20ish area's solo the loot will very likely be the same or better. Reaching Woods included. I get the argument of wanting to just go open chests and see what you get, but I think the other side of the discussion remains swept under the rug. What about the party of level 7-8 PCs that are in the Lions Way Gnoll dungeon struggling through and are robbed of the experience by the level 30 that just wanted to open chests, but since they are just trying to open as many chests as possible as quickly as possible they kill all the bosses in front of the group? Shall they just OOC take a 20 minute break so they can have their bosses respawn? find a spot they can rest since their buffs are all going to run out, having such short durations at lower levels?

of course changes will continue to be considered, but to be honest I am not swayed by the desire to just go open chests, you can still do that. At level 30 you can still go to Reaching Woods, Troll Claws, Nashkel and other places and you should do just fine loot wise. Just leave the ultra low CR area's for those with proper level PC's to enjoy. Some players do appreciate the challenge of PvE and not only seeing what toy appears when they open their happy meal.

[zhazz]

I think the elephant in the room here is the lack of transparency in what the changes do for the gameplay.

Is the CR range dynamic, starting out low, but increasing with levels?
Is it a flat value that applies to every level?
At what point is a CR considered too low?

There is no need to know how the loot system works in all its nuances, but at the very least it might alleviate the concerns brought up by Steve and Planehopper both, if a little detail was provided.

For example: what is the lower CR limit for a level 30 character?
Not asking here when they get reduced loot, but when the loot changes from "acceptable" to "you should go somewhere else".


Like . . can I run a level 30 character through the Yuan-Ti Temple (23) and get CR appropriate loot? What if I take a level 30 to the Ogre Caves (16) do I get no loot then, or just reduced?

A lot of this can be found through experimentation, obviously so, but not everyone wants to, or are capable of, spending 40+ hours mapping this out.
Eventually a thread will be made on the forums about it, from players who have figured it out, and then we're in the situation anyway, where people will try to optimize it. Might as well just skip that step, share some rough numbers, and let players get a read on what is considered "acceptable CR".

I myself look forward to discovering some of this ICly, but I also know that a lot of people don't have the same time that I do.

[gedweyignasia]

A lot of this can be found through experimentation

Yep, that's the best way to do it. Play the game, report serious issues or places where it feels horribly off. Worry less about gaming the system, just go to dungeons close to your level.

[Steve]

2020/11/30—

Graypeaks (CR 27) with PC Lvl 30 Surface Aasimar (solo) — 1st run after Loot Rebalance

Chest:
Scroll: Fireball
Gold Piece: 726

Chest:
Light Shield +1
Gold: 69

Gr. Fire Elemental drop:
166gp

Gr. Fire Elemental drop:
Kukri: Massive Cries 2d6; Mithral; Spell Immunity: Grease; 60% weight reduction
Pit Fiend Ichor (poison): DC 27
Magic Quarterstaff: Sorcerer spell Level 1; Dmg Bonus Magical 1; EB +1
Burning Stick!!!

Chest:
53 gp
Scroll: Invisibility Purge

Pudding drop:
Scale Mail: AC +4; Reduced Saving Throws: Positive Energy -2; SR 18

Pudding drop:
Boots AC dodge +1

Beholder’s cave chest outside:
63gp
Potion of Spider Skin
Blade Barrier
Create Undead

Beholder’s Cave Chest:
34gp
Potion of Owl’s Wisdom

Beholder drop:
Quarterstaff: 20m Purple Light; Only Usable by Evil

Chest:
33gp
Potion of Vigorous Cycle

Chest:
Scimiar AB +2

Fire Giant (yellow name) drop
Katana +2 EB; Cold Iron

Chest:
882gp
Silver Ring
Magic Wand: Wand of the Heavens (lesser)

Gr. Fire Elemental drop:
222gp

Stone Giant Camp Chest:
54gp
Bolt of Fire (232) Fire 1d6
Potion of Righteous Might

---

Fire Giant General’s Cave

Gr. Fire Elemental (Yellow Name):
Ring +1 Deflection; HP +6
Padded Armor: AC Bonus +1; Spell Immunity: Mass Charm Monster
180 gp

Rat: Mandarin Garnet

Fire Giant General:
5000gp
Studded Leather Armor +1

General's Cave Chest:
1100gp

General's Cave Chest:
36gp
Gold Ring

General's Cave Chest:
60gp
Scroll: Prismatic Spray

General's Cave Chest:
Banded Mail (plain)
Heavy Crossbow (plain)

---

All I can say is...

[Hoihe]

You can go to dungeons reasonably below your level and still get loot (albeit worse loot). You just can't go very far below your level. As Chad mentioned, a Level 17 character can loot a CR10 area and get loot.

What about a level 30 character looting the Troll Claws ogre caves, Durlag's Tower, Nashkel mines? And of that, I'd argue not all 3 are feasible solo (for instance, nashkel mines can spawn mobs with 30+ AB), and I want to echo the practical difficulties of mandating grouping due to what Planehopper listed.

[Snarfy]

At what point is a CR considered too low?

There is no need to know how the loot system works in all its nuances, but at the very least it might alleviate the concerns brought up by Steve and Planehopper both, if a little detail was provided.

For example: what is the lower CR limit for a level 30 character?
Not asking here when they get reduced loot, but when the loot changes from "acceptable" to "you should go somewhere else".


Like . . can I run a level 30 character through the Yuan-Ti Temple (23) and get CR appropriate loot? What if I take a level 30 to the Ogre Caves (16) do I get no loot then, or just reduced?

Judging from what I've tried out, I think the cutoff for level 30's is CR 18 or 19.

Given that, and using the link provided by Ged earlier, here's a quick list I made with what you might expect @ Level 30 and without group. I'll put a * beside the areas I think players would likely be most willing to go loot (I had my sneak in mind when typing out the commentary):

17 Nashkel's Mine Exterior - Low gold yield chests***, heavy spawns.
18 Troll Claws - Heavy spawns, few containers over a huge exterior.
18 Ulcaster Ruins - A bit complex/intensive for a casual looting run.
19 Durlag's Labyrinth Levels 1-2 - Relatively easy, regardless of build. *
19 Nashkel's Mine - Relatively easy, casters might need to utilize rest areas. *
19 Cloud Peaks - Relatively easy, few containers over a large exterior. *
20 Troll Claws, Troll Cave - Heavy spawns, far more ideal for XP grinding than looting.
20 Ulcaster Shadow Ruins - .... never been there, no idea.
20 Yuan-ti Hills - Heavy spawns, cant even remember if there's lootable containers outside.
21 Searing Tunnels and Searing Caverns - .... err, where?
21 Cloakwood North-West, Haunted House Level 3 - Can be a rather difficult encounter for a 3(4?) container adventure, risk VS reward debatable.
... Ozgoroth goes in here somewhere - Doable, if you can open locks. Expect to use consumables. *
22 Ice Cave - Relatively easy, with proper immunities. * (?)
22 Durlag's Labyrinth Level 3 - Intensive for a casual looting run, risk VS reward debatable.
22 Durlag's Labyrinth Level 4 - Intensive for a casual looting run, risk VS reward debatable.
23 Trollclaws, Old Mine - Go find a group, or you'll probably die.
23 High Moor, Spirit Troll Cave - Go find a group, or you'll probably die.
23 Wyrm's Cave - ???
23 Yuan-ti Temple - Doable, except for some of the bosses perhaps. *
23 Reaching Woods - Doable, heavy spawns over a huge area. *
23 Lizard Cave in Amn - Doable in 10 minutes. *
24 Stone Giants - Relatively easy, except you cant get past the door solo.
24 Vault Level 1 - Hope you have a decent build, and aren't a sneak.
24 Forest of Wyrms - Hope you have a decent build, and aren't a sneak(unless you enjoy using consumables).
25 Vault Level 2 - Hope you have a decent build, and aren't a sneak.
27 Frost Giants - Doable solo, risk VS reward decent, consumable use permitting. *
27 Graypeaks - Very intensive/dangerous.
28 Speartop - Hahaha, nope. Find a group.
29 Vault Level 3 - ... see Vault 1 and 2? I think I've been there once in a decade.
29 Netherese Maze - ... never seen it, probably RIP.
30 Lyran's Hold - RIP.

So basically, going by the list of areas by CR, the number of 'loot-normal' areas a character can go alone at level 10 is in the 40 range, while the number of 'loot-normal' areas a character can go alone at level 20 is somewhere in the 25'ish range. Where once a level 30 could go literally anywhere alone(except the suicidal places mentioned), now they are reduced to roughly about 10 - 15 loot-normal areas(many of which are way out in the boondocks) where the risk does not dramatically outweigh the reward. (Personally speaking, under typical non-group/time sensitive playing circumstances, out of those 10 - 15 areas I would probably now only visit Nashkel mines, Lizard caves, and Yuan-ti temple)

[gedweyignasia]

You can go to dungeons reasonably below your level and still get loot (albeit worse loot). You just can't go very far below your level. As Chad mentioned, a Level 17 character can loot a CR10 area and get loot.

What about a level 30 character looting the Troll Claws ogre caves, Durlag's Tower, Nashkel mines? And of that, I'd argue not all 3 are feasible solo (for instance, nashkel mines can spawn mobs with 30+ AB), and I want to echo the practical difficulties of mandating grouping due to what Planehopper listed.

You may not be able to loot all areas a few levels below your CR alone, but you can loot some areas below your CR alone.

[tharnok]

i think the biggest problem is for low and mid lvl area's is the CR list is so faulty, and your base your loot table on a faulty CR list. Unless your a powerbuild that all ready got some of the power earlier, some in your party is, or you have someone come with a high lvl char and buff you or you do it to one in your party, you often cannot handle area your CR faar from, with how the mobs are buffed and the combination of the mobs, so you often run in area's 3-5 lvls below the said CR since it still give decent xp and you can handle it.

lets take Gnoll cave its a CR 8, but you often do not go there before lvl 12 maybe 11, but its often not worth the xp, how hard they to kill and the high risk of dying.

And excample went there with a friend, were both play barbarians, that is powerbuilding on some regards dmg and hp, bad ac but good enough ac for that area. Were both lvl 14 my char still died in 7 second when 3 Gnoll acolytes spawned, got spell raped to oblivion, and i had nearly 200hp, and thats a char 6 lvl over the CR put on the list.

I think those that made the CR list forgot several things (without directly know the mobs build i can only asume out from my expertise as one that have played NWN 1 and 2 since the beginning, and DM on several servers and made monster for some also, and DM in PnP for over 20 years)

1). CR is ment to in PnP to take away around 1/5-1/4 of the party's rescourses, but this is a pc game you have a lot more encounters between rest compared to a PnP adventure were you might have 4-5 maybe 6 as a strech and that is only if they lets say in a very packed house/dungeon and so, often they have 1-2 encounter between rest, so you cannot make the CR so they take away so much resources of the party in NWN, when you also put in a rest timer (wich do make sense but you have to keep it in mind)

2). The mobs here are powerbuild often with improved crit and power crit for say melee and so on, plus they got buffed their hp alot,

3) Now this is just asumption but i also think they forgot when you add a pc class to a mob each lvl pc class lvl count as 1 CR, were as monster HD is between 2-4 HD increased the CR 1 depending on the monster type (also monster HD often gives feats less often compared to PC class lvl and no monster HD gives full BAB, its medium or less depending on race and type), stats improvement also increase the CR, speciel ability's or extra feats and so on improved the CR of a mobs.

Lets take outside the gnoll cave, the mobs should be a CR 6 area (6 = Lion's Way, Road south of FAI ).
Now a normal gnoll got Str 15, Dex 10, i just fought them to today so i know they got +13 to their first attack, they got some lvls lets say they got 2 stats points, so they should have +3 to from stats lets say its a +2 weapon, thats +5 and you given it weapon focus, that meens it should have 7 fighter lvls so CR of each gnoll out there is 8 and you run in to 2-3 of them most the time so thats a CR 10 for 2 of them and CR 11 for 3, encounter not a CR 6.

And these the lower lvls mobs thats more easy to figure out those just what is listed as CR 10+ area were the mobs given speciel abilities, immunities, resistence and so on and more HD etc. Also did not talk about AC wich is also higher on most mobs and they alot better geared then normal, all that also increases CR.

All that does people very rare go area's on the CR they often go areas 4-5 lvls lower unless they party with a powerfull char that is often a few lvls over the CR, very few area's you go around the CR that is listen, South of Bergost is one of the few, and Troll Claws but only with cerntain build or if there is a lvl 20+ char that can handle them self there you can party with. And that is also some of the few areas were you find a party you can join since they good hunting area's why people go there those lvls they can find a party quit often.


That also brings me to another problem on the server, now you base the loot table on the CR list and also with mind there is cerntain loot chest avaible with in the given CR, problem is many of the area's to hard for their CR and not Fun for their CR except for certain build or general not fun, so there not that many chest you can loot on your lvl to get the gear you need to handle the higher CR area's.
And when i say fun, its ment for the players to run in those area's to be fun, challenging can be fun, i find that fun, but there is a line when its not fun anymore, and when you build monsters and so on the server, have in mind the same FIRST rule you also need as a PnP DM, will this monster and this i do be fun for my players, yes i might find it fun as a DM, but will THEY.
Always keep that in mind, and the reason i say that is, because i think its been forgotten some in the big tought about power creeps and so on, that now most areas on your CR they not fun even if you cpuld handle them, forinstance if your a Caster and you meet a mob caster you get dispelled and all your buffs are gone and thats happens all the time, thats not fun, so you do not go area's you get dispelled all the time or the chance are so very slim, and with the improvement on dispel spells, well that meens you need to go below your CR by alot.

But for a excample and area that is not fun (12 = Cloakwood Central, Hag Cave) the hag spawns are powerbuilded, hit like a truck, have high AB and crit alot ( i assume WM build), the hags got str ability dmg on hit, and you cannot protect against ability dmg anymore with the neft to death ward for excample, so the only class i go there with is chars that got Hips and maybe 15-20 mins and then i get bored of the constant crit that take me to half hp or more and being str dereases and running low on resoration potions. Its a area that general very few people go and when they do not very often and very little, reason is, its not a fun area to play so people avoid it. Cloakwood outside not a bad lvling area problem is your poisen immune keeps get dispelled and unless your well geared it can be pretty dangerous and you do not go there as a lvl 12 chars maybe 14 but often 15-16, and well you stay until you get tired of getting dispelled all the time, but still a ok popular area's for some people but not many.

So with the how tuff area's are and how missplace the CR list is, is actually not many chest char in low to mid lvl can loot or will loot, so they often go area's that on the list are 4-6 CR below them both since more fun area's to play for their lvl and also were they can handle them self and were they also will loot the chest, problem is those chest will now give them a few gold coins.

Now those older Players with high lvl powerbuild chars they can loot the high lvl area's but new players that come to the server will have a lot harder time to get the money for gear and with also the epic item shops and the max 1400g per items (wich i find is also a problem to why people go around and loot alot, is because we want those items, but we have to grind true chest and chest to get the money for those items, yes they should not be free but with a 1400g max sell well your asking for people to grind chest to get them, if you could sell for 5000g as max, you quickly after a months time see alot less chest grinding compared to now)

Older players not so affect by this new CR based chest loot as they can grab a lvl 30 powerfull char and get gold if they want, new players will quickly not find the server not so fun because of it, CR list do not match and they cannot handle the area were they can get a chance to get good loot to get gear, they proberly leave again, unless they heavy rp and find some rp.

So to make it match you need to either fix the CR list, or just change the chest to fit with the lvls of chars that in general run in those area's, basicle beside for the first few area's, up the CR for each chest with 5, then it will match with the lvl were people run there so say Gnoll Cave with have CR 10-15 chest not 5-10 and so on.


Sorry for the long novel and the typos.

With greeting Tharnok

PS. regarding the Mimics they not fun, they way to op for theor CR often the bosses in the area are way more easy then the f Mimic, and then they spawn way to often and do not drop loot most the time.

[gedweyignasia]

here's a quick list I made with what you might expect @ Level 30

This list of about 30 areas seems right; those should all still provide loot to a level 30 PC, although it's important to remember that you will get much better items if you loot areas closer to CR30.

[gedweyignasia]

i think the biggest problem is for low and mid lvl area's is the CR list is so faulty, and your base your loot table on a faulty CR list.

I based the loot on the spawn lists. If the spawns for one CR7 area are not of the same difficulty as the spawns for another CR7 area, this might be due to power creep as some have not been updated in a long time. Remember that CR7 means the area is balanced for a party at level 7, and the boss will be more difficult than the rest of the area, likely requiring the use of some consumables.

lets take Gnoll cave its a CR 8, but you often do not go there before lvl 12 maybe 11, but its often not worth the xp, how hard they to kill and the high risk of dying. And excample went there with a friend, were both play barbarians, that is powerbuilding on some regards dmg and hp, bad ac but good enough ac for that area.

Try with a full party of 6 at level 8. A party of 2 is twice as strong as going in solo, but it's 1/3 tof he strength you might need in that area.

CR is ment to in PnP to take away around 1/5-1/4 of the party's rescourses

This is not the rule that's used to build our encounters, and in BGTSCC most players have access to an item which grants HP regeneration.

Always keep that in mind, and the reason i say that is, because i think its been forgotten some in the big tought about power creeps and so on, that now most areas on your CR they not fun even if you cpuld handle them, forinstance if your a Caster and you meet a mob caster you get dispelled and all your buffs are gone and thats happens all the time, thats not fun, so you do not go area's you get dispelled all the time or the chance are so very slim, and with the improvement on dispel spells, well that meens you need to go below your CR by alot.

There are a variety of areas with different kinds of enemies possessing different abilities. If you do not like fighting one sort of enemy, you should avoid that area. This might mean you have fewer places that you enjoy looting, but rebalancing the chests so that PCs aren't rewarded for fighting monsters far, far weaker than they are isn't the root of that problem.


For further discussion of what CR means in BGTSCC, how spawns are balanced, etc, it is probably better to start another thread.