Request Player Feedback/Discussion: Deleveling on Death

[Rhifox]

I am not sure that this actually makes sense RP wise. In losing a level, a character would lose certain skills, and could potentially lose traits depending on the level lost. This does not really make sense to me, that being brought back would result in the loss of knowledge or lessons previously learned. This is even more noticeable in higher levels, where it is a long time between leveling; you can't really argue it's a little amnesia after being raised, when they lose the knowledge or ability the character could have learned over a month ago.

I mean, RP wise, it's *supposed* to. Earlier editions you had to make a constitution check to even survive the resurrection. Even in later editions, you typically lose a level flat out from being raised, not just a little exp, and level 1 characters actually permanently lose Constitution if they are resurrected. It's supposed to be a very trying experience that eats away at your life force and soul, just like energy drain effects do. (Same thing with magic crafting eating exp, it's meant to be that you're imbuing your essence into the item, so your own lifeforce gets weaker). The only exception to this is True Resurrection, a 9th level spell. How someone RPs this could vary. It could be losing memories, forgetting skills, it could be a weakening of the body, instincts getting dulled because their connection to reality has been disrupted, maybe you're haunted by the experience and so can't focus on things, and so on.

Now, I do like the idea of a lingering de-buff after being raised, that will last say 24 hours or until you have a restoration done, if only because it makes the act of healing more consequential, and is a game mechanic that actually encourages more role play without frustrating or infurating a player.

I agree on the ideas of a debuff though I'm not entirely sure on allowing it to be cured by Restoration. I guess it's okay as long as it's only by a Greater Restoration (so people can't potion or wand it).

There's also supposed to be gold and material costs in resurrection that we largely ignore. Even without exp loss, resurrection is way too free on BG. And it always sucks when you are playing a character capable of resurrecting people, only to watch as you are ignored while every adventurer is carrying 20 raise dead scrolls and just whips one out and instantly raises people after a fight (which they can cast instantly, unlike clerics who need several rounds).

[yyj]

I am not sure that this actually makes sense RP wise. In losing a level, a character would lose certain skills, and could potentially lose traits depending on the level lost. This does not really make sense to me, that being brought back would result in the loss of knowledge or lessons previously learned. This is even more noticeable in higher levels, where it is a long time between leveling; you can't really argue it's a little amnesia after being raised, when they lose the knowledge or ability the character could have learned over a month ago.

I mean, RP wise, it's *supposed* to. Earlier editions you had to make a constitution check to even survive the resurrection. Even in later editions, you typically lose a level flat out from being raised, not just a little exp, and level 1 characters actually permanently lose Constitution if they are resurrected. It's supposed to be a very trying experience that eats away at your life force and soul, just like energy drain effects do. (Same thing with magic crafting eating exp, it's meant to be that you're imbuing your essence into the item, so your own lifeforce gets weaker). The only exception to this is True Resurrection, a 9th level spell. How someone RPs this could vary. It could be losing memories, forgetting skills, it could be a weakening of the body, instincts getting dulled because their connection to reality has been disrupted, maybe you're haunted by the experience and so can't focus on things, and so on.

Now, I do like the idea of a lingering de-buff after being raised, that will last say 24 hours or until you have a restoration done, if only because it makes the act of healing more consequential, and is a game mechanic that actually encourages more role play without frustrating or infurating a player.

I agree on the ideas of a debuff though I'm not entirely sure on allowing it to be cured by Restoration. I guess it's okay as long as it's only by a Greater Restoration (so people can't potion or wand it).

There's also supposed to be gold and material costs in resurrection that we largely ignore. Even without exp loss, resurrection is way too free on BG. And it always sucks when you are playing a character capable of resurrecting people, only to watch as you are ignored while every adventurer is carrying 20 raise dead scrolls and just whips one out and instantly raises people after a fight (which they can cast instantly, unlike clerics who need several rounds).

Rhifox post made me change my vote, this is true. It will give more importance to dying and probably create more immersive scenarios rather than just getting a free trip back home.

[ajcolt]

*********************misread

[RagingPeace]

I die way too often to the terrible engine that is NWN2 ever to support more severe punishment in deaths. Killing trolls or wyverns for an hour only to die to lag and lose all the progress has sent me on vacation from the game often already

[[DM] Grinning Death]

I'd like to see perhaps something along the lines of a stat reduction, as previously mentioned. It would make RP sense for you to suffer as a result of injuries if you choose to respawn, because in essence you're saying "I barely made it out alive." Your sheet should reflect that, and it would make sense for studier characters to have more endurance in the face of such encounters.

[gedweyignasia]

Internet disconnects, lag, and server fart-age make this a big nope for me.

This is the same issue that players currently face. The only change proposed is that the penalty wouldn't stop at a level boundary.

[gedweyignasia]

I'd prefer this too. You'd don't lose months of progress but you're forced to take some down time and consider your life choices ><

You would not lose months of progress, just the same amount of XP that you would ordinarily, except that the loss wouldn't stop at a level boundary.

I would fully support an increase to the penalty from Myrkul to be increased to a full lost level.

This is NOT what is being proposed. When a PC is revived by Myrkul, they lose 100 XP/level. They cannot be de-leveled, however. So a Level 21 PC would lose 2100 XP. My proposal is just to apply the full XP penalty regardless of level.

Currently: If a Level 21 PC has 1100 XP towards Level 22, they would only lose 1100 XP instead of the full 2100 XP.

The Proposal: The Level 21 PC with 1100 XP towards Level 22 would lose a full 2100 XP, de-leveling to Level 20, with 1000 XP remaining until they reach Level 21.

If the system isn’t broke, don’t try and fix it. , with respect.

I would mostly agree, but the system is a little broke. If a player has just leveled up, or has reached level 30, there isn't really a penalty for dying.

Meta-raising is already wide spread. People who follow the rules are going to get angry it's not applied and enforced fairly even knowing such is near impossible to prove.

1.Not raising party members is now incentivized.
a Rivals will not raise each other in parties
b. Some players are friendly fire sadistic gamers or just like to find excuses to ruin each others day.
2. Players will break the rules to kill others if they believe they wont get caught.
3. Players will retaliate against each other.
4. Players will have another avenue to try to pressure players to retire characters they don't like
5. Players will have another avenue to pressure others to play characters they want you to play and what they want you to rp.
6. Players of heroic characters or unwise or reckless characers will be disincentivized to play their characters IC.
7. Players will be incentivized not to take chances.
8. Players will be incentivized to make the most effective min-maxed power builds possible.
9. Players with RP builds that are not good in combat are disincentivized to ever adventure.
10. Players will be eventually be abused by DMs and there eventually will be retaliation and create a huge ugly mess as such things are very difficult to prove.
11. Players already have agency to dock themselves experience if they so choose.

I can probably go on. There really isn't any issue with the current system and it prevents a lot of crap and hard feelings between players. It's much easier to just send a player a tell and say hey "we are rping this, want to play along?". Any perceived issue is always best handled by open and honest communication.

I'm not sure how the proposed change would have that impact if the current system does not. The proposed system would not increase XP penalties, it would just ensure that the full XP penalty is always applied, even if it takes players across a level boundary.

[ajcolt]

I'm not sure how the proposed change would have that impact if the current system does not. The proposed system would not increase XP penalties, it would just ensure that the full XP penalty is always applied, even if it takes players across a level boundary.

Yeah. I'd read this as an automatic delevel upon death replacing the current penalty. I'm going to edit my post.

[Almarea90]

I honestly think we aren't approaching the problem from the right side. The reason why dying doesn't feel realistic is because we are trying to apply PNP logic to game mechanics handled automatically. In PNP and therefore dnd setting players aren't supposed to die this often, because there's no lag and the encounters are adapted by a human DM. Here this doesn't happen, so my suggestion is to consider the mechanical death as KO and add as suggested a long lasting penalty to the stats that can only be removed with greater restoration, as barely escaping with one's life is no joke.
When death happens in RP (for example death enforced by DM or by another player in PvP) I would agree to apply all the due costs and limitations of PNP (diamonds, exp loss, true resurrection needed if there's no body).

[Snarfy]

Internet disconnects, lag, and server fart-age make this a big nope for me.

This is the same issue that players currently face. The only change proposed is that the penalty wouldn't stop at a level boundary.

I would fully support an increase to the penalty from Myrkul to be increased to a full lost level.

This is NOT what is being proposed. When a PC is revived by Myrkul, they lose 100 XP/level. They cannot be de-leveled, however. So a Level 21 PC would lose 2100 XP. My proposal is just to apply the full XP penalty regardless of level.

Currently: If a Level 21 PC has 1100 XP towards Level 22, they would only lose 1100 XP instead of the full 2100 XP.

The Proposal: The Level 21 PC with 1100 XP towards Level 22 would lose a full 2100 XP, de-leveling to Level 20, with 1000 XP remaining until they reach Level 21.

Oh! Looks like I'm not the only one who misunderstood this...

In that case... eh, I don't know if it would be a good or bad thing.

Here this doesn't happen, so my suggestion is to consider the mechanical death as KO and add as suggested a long lasting penalty to the stats that can only be removed with greater restoration, as barely escaping with one's life is no joke.

I'm more on board with something like this. Most players treat mechanical death this way anyways, so why not turf the Fugue concept, or change it into something more appropriate with taking a dirt-nap, add some 'seeing stars' effect(maybe put some unicorns and owlbears in there *sage nod*)... and then add the gimp effects for 1 hour, or whatever. At the very least, it will add a bit more realism in both the mechanical sense, as well as stop those rare occasions where folks will RP their trip to the Fugue plane/talking to a god to "come back to life".

[ajcolt]

Now that I read it properly instead of skimming over everything .

They say there is no automatic bot for RCR to take away XP and give it back because characters get bugged occasionally and it can be exploited in certain situations. That might be the reason the death penalty was coded so characters cannot lose levels.

^^^^^^If that isn't a problem I don't think it matters too much either way. It might be better if PCs could lose a level.

[Kitunenotsume]

My interpretation of the initial proposition was that we were attemptng to address:

Once a PC reaches the maximum level, the penalty is essentially meaningless to them, and there are no risks or consequences except those they choose to RP, plus the minor inconvenience of being sent to another location.

If a level 30 character loses 30*100 XP, we are looking at 3000 XP per death, which, per the post, is essentially meaningless. The ability to lose a level from that 3000 means that a character who has potentially 93,000 XP banked up before losing a level still finds it essentially meaningless. A non-ECL character at maximum experience would need to die 31 times in succession before the level-loss penalty would come into consideration. Clearly ECL races have a lower 'bank', but given that the system actively rewards such characters with mechanical advantages, that is not unreasonable.


I agree that level-loss unduly affects characters in the process of leveling, but even this change would fail to impact anyone who has already reached it, or as was previously also stated regarding gold:

The problem with losing gold is that there's a lot of wealth inequality in BGTSCC, so the penalty wouldn't affect all players the same. Poor players who don't grind much would suffer greatly. You can't make it proportional to the amount of gold they have on them, because gold can be stored on a mule.

Replacing [gold] with [xp] results in a mostly true clause; the difference being here that we can take XP proportional (because it can't be stored on a mule outside spare RCRs), but doing so would result in ... level-loss, and thereby the crux of this discussion.


In my initial post, I had a suggestion that would also reduce the impact of such severity by rewarding using more powerful revival resources, either to mitigate or bypass the penalty entirely. I would strongly suggest considering having True Resurrection as an available spell that does so, and lower revival utilities restore proportionally less depending on their power.


Regarding the revised OP,
all the revival utilities do bypass the slap-on-the-wrist Myrkul XP tax, and I see no reason why they would cease to do so under the singular proposed change. Not stopping at level boundaries AFAIK is simply applying the full consequence for death under all situations, instead of having exceptions that marginalize any potential risk for your actions.
Even under the proposed change, if anyone wants not to get de-leveled - find someone to rez you from the living instead of bargaining with the god of the dead. Clearly this favors parties over solo but ... why shouldn't it? Isn't adventuring alone a deliberate personal in-character choice?



Regarding alternatives
There is a middle ground of offering a 'safety' per time-period to account for random misfortune. Having a 'safe' opportunity once a week, where you get buffered before it falls through to "Next death will roll over a level", for example. In my opinion such a course would continue to remain an essentially meaningless cost, but not in a means that can be repeatedly exploited in a short time period and thereby accounting for misfortune by lag, connections, or freak accident.

[gedweyignasia]

Not stopping at level boundaries AFAIK is simply applying the full consequence for death under all situations, instead of having exceptions that marginalize any potential risk for your actions.

Yes, that's all I'm proposing. A more comprehensive rework of the penalty for death or an option to treat it as a "knock-out" instead of dying would be better served as its own discussion. There have been a number of good ideas in this thread related to that which I think deserve some real attention.

[Zanniej]

I vote for losing a level per time you died. Died 30 times? Back to level 1 when you die, regardless of what level you are

Kidding.

I like the idea of making it more of a knockout effect, with long lasting penalties that can't just be removed.
I'm not quite sure if it should completely be instead of death. I mean, if you're in a party you could possibly be "knocked out", but when you're alone in the wilds, you might be in bigger problems. So maybe for such cases, we could still use a death system.

But the ideas I see look cool!

[athornforyourheart]

I try not to linger on these forum discussions because they all end up turning into heated arguments but I personally chose the 4th option of all of them. I think I'd hang up the gloves and leave this server. I know some may think that sounds dramatic but its true :shrug. I just don't have the time to work up xp losses from crashes (which happened to me twice this week in DM events - one of which caused me to log in dead).

For the server population and its future, I see this causing more issues than solving them. Sure, some players will get that realistic approach to death feel that they have been asking for but for others its just unnecessary. Of course this would probably promote more sitting around the campfire Rp simply because I don't want to risk losing a level. I think the debuff works though with a gr. restoration IF you have the absolute itch to change this, then i'd say make it that.

Change can cause players to leave - even if it as at the expense of making the RP a bit more realistic for some.

Please don't quote this.
This is my response to the OP as per their request for feedback. ((sorry if my words are scrambled, just woke up lol ))