Basic Feint Questions

[sir_blacksoutalot]

I'd appreciate some insight into the Feint feat. It's not a feat that's ever appealed to me, so I don't have any experience using it. I'll start with two basic questions.

(1) I've placed the feat in my hotbar. To activate, it seems I need to click it every round I want to use it. So that means clicking the hotbar button every 6 seconds. It comes down to spamming Feint...6s... Feint...6s... Feint...6s... Granted, I can mix it up with other feats/actions, but if my char is heavily reliant on Feint, then that means a whole lot of clicking the same darn button. This just doesn't seem like a fun way to play the game. Am I missing something here?

(2) Does it make any sense for a non-sneaker without Sneak Attack to take Feint? Or even for a melee-based character with a lowly mix of 1d6 or 2d6 SA to take Feint? It seems such a character could deny the enemy their DEX bonus. But I'm not sure that makes it worth taking Feint with so many other feat options available.

Yes, I realize this is a total newb question. I hang my head in shame for it. Still, can you guys help shed some light on what makes Feint worthwhile?

[Kitunenotsume]

I think other people here might be more qualified to comment, but one quirk of Feint is that it applies to the first attack immediately after activation.

In other words, you as a player control which attack you lose for Feint.
Activating it in the last flurry, with your lowest BAB, allows you to gain all the benefits without losing much in the way of likely hits. If it were auto-activating, you would always need to lose your best attack bonuses.
You can also activate it multiple times a round, IIRC, in case the first feint fails.

I think there is use to denying Dex and Dodge to AC, but I'm also not familiar with the powerbuilding meta for the server, or the enemy defense types, so I'll leave it to others to chirp in on that regard.

[Zkenic]

1) Assuming a PTWF rogue build, the trick is usually to queue it up once after the first flurry, and another 1-2 on the last flurry if it didnt land properly.

40/35/30/25/20/40/35/30/25/20 for PTWF and 5 attacks ends up looking like...
[40/35/30/25]/[20/40/35]/[30/25/20]
The first flurry out of HiPS will get Sneak Attack. Then if you queue up for the second flurry it will be used on your lowest mainhand attack. If it lands all the rest of your attacks that round will be against FF AC.

2) Feinting on a non-sneakattacker. Feinting makes the target FF, which is useful for any melee build and helps teammates kill folks. The negative, feinting is a really heavy investment. You need to max bluff and get some bluff gear. You also will want to take things like Silver Tongued background feat, skill focus bluff, and classes like guildthief for the extra +4 bluff when feinting because you have to beat the enemies BaB+Spot. That means if you just leave Bluff at base, even 0 spot enemies will make the DC, and if you want to feint monsters with some spot you'll need heavy investment. Because of that, most non-SA builds usually dont want to bother with such a heavy investment.

That being said, a really strong feinter build is 12fighter/3blackguard/5guildthief/10(fill, can do rogue or ghostfaced killer or any other class really). The Charisma for EDM makes your bluff higher, the feint means you dont have to waste time on a HiPS class, and even if you take something like 10WoD you still are adding 3d6 damage and lower AC against enemies when you feint.

Another useful one. On an evil cleric I played once I used feint (free from trickery domain), and it helped with the clerics only moderate AB when not using divine power. It also gave me a way to play a cleric/rogue/darkfire disciple/hierophant with 29CL while getting enough SA dice to do good damage.

[sir_blacksoutalot]

Thanks, guys. I think I now better understand the mechanics for Feint. At least on the surface.

Zkenic, I really appreciate the heads-up about needing the gear with +Bluff bonus. I would've discovered that the hard way.

[Steve]

It’s a massive investment for not always a huge payoff.

Think also on that sneak damage from feint won’t apply to many mobs unless your build also has Epic Precision (half sneak dice applied). And it’s really something for TWF builds.

One should consider Invisible Blade PrC as well, because it increases Feint rolls and applies Bleeding on each successful SA hit (which is a cumulative bleeding multiple rounds...though is denied with 6+ DR, that far to many mobs have, especially in Epics).

Successful Feint does still have the great power of removing DEX and Dodge AC from one opponent. As was said, it is fantastic in a Party for other builds that have SA dice cause it works for them too.

But if you are looking for a more consistent AC drain, go full Taunt Skill (as you probably have tried before). That’s -2 AC for a colossal range!

Here is a kooky build for you: Swash 17 / Cleric 3 (Feint/Blindfight) / Invisible Bade 5 / Guild Thief 5. Sneaky Sharran Sailor of the Sea!!

[Blackman D]

It’s a massive investment for not always a huge payoff.

Think also on that sneak damage from feint won’t apply to many mobs unless your build also has Epic Precision (half sneak dice applied). And it’s really something for TWF builds.

while this is true, more specifically its more something that you really need a minimum SA dice for to be useful, essentially if you have over 10d6 SA then epic precision starts to become a must have and feint is simply more useful in avoiding hips spamming, but EP is for crit immune and its not as if everything is crit immune

and i have 3 sneaks, one AA, one PTWF and one melee single weapon/thrown user and i have feint on both melee sneaks

my hin with PTWF is just over 10d6 SA with IB levels so feint really boosts her damage output when it lands, my melee assassin has 21d6 SA so its more of a must have in her case (and both have EP)

One should consider Invisible Blade PrC as well, because it increases Feint rolls and applies Bleeding on each successful SA hit (which is a cumulative bleeding multiple rounds...though is denied with 6+ DR, that far to many mobs have, especially in Epics).

IB doesnt increase feint it just grants feint mastery which prevents you from rolling less than a 5, just like other rogue mastery skills

and the bleed even against DR is still useful when its something like stoneskin or other pooled DR, you just hit them a few times, hide, and wait for the DR to drop... with PTWF and 4 sneaks in the first flurry, 5 IB does 72 pts of bleed damage, so a 100 pt stoneskin wont last from an attack or two from stealth and you just waiting it out

Successful Feint does still have the great power of removing DEX and Dodge AC from one opponent. As was said, it is fantastic in a Party for other builds that have SA dice cause it works for them too.

feint is... excessively dangerous in a party of sneaks when you are the target, can definitely vouch for that one

[Steve]

I’m sure we can all agree that when Feint works, it does so extremely well. But their are still shortcomings and heavy investment that aren’t for the average player, me thinks.